YandereDev/Mike Z

<YandereDev

This is the full chatlog of YandereDev (EvaXephon) talking with Skullgirls developer Mike Z (wippler-wrokn) about Lunar Scythe, with him getting shat on by Mike for not knowing how to code. Autism ahead:

Nov 20 04:42:20 <EvaXephon> -.-...
Nov 20 04:42:49 <Mwisk> mornin'
Nov 20 04:43:58 <wippler-wrokn> augh I can't remember my xsplit password
Nov 20 04:44:04 <wippler-wrokn> also 15 min to add a charge motion is
Nov 20 04:44:06 <wippler-wrokn> how you say
Nov 20 04:44:08 <wippler-wrokn> not acceptable?
Nov 20 04:44:34 <EvaXephon> D: Everyone hates my fighting game! It's the opposite of what I envisioned...
Nov 20 04:44:34 <wippler-wrokn> like...what I got from your demo was "I haven't done most of the work yet but since I haven't encountered problems my design is sound and I should ignore your advice."
Nov 20 04:44:44 <wippler-wrokn> I don't hate the GAME
Nov 20 04:44:47 <wippler-wrokn> I hate your attitude
Nov 20 04:44:48 <EvaXephon> I wonder if it could still be considered fun from a gameplay perspective :/ ...
Nov 20 04:44:51 <BITTERBEE> EvaXephon: They don't HATE it, they're just trying to give you advice.
Nov 20 04:44:57 <wippler-wrokn> I don't care about the GAME part
Nov 20 04:45:46 <Midiman> t EvaXephon make the shit you wanna make, period.
Nov 20 04:45:52 <wippler-wrokn> Like I keep saying "these are problems you will encounter later" and you say "but I haven't encountered them yet so what I'm doing is solid"
Nov 20 04:46:00 <Midiman> just take advice from someone who works in the field you're attempting, period
Nov 20 04:46:09 <EvaXephon> I have done *most* of the work...there are just things you asked for that happen to not be implemented...v_v...
Nov 20 04:46:18 <Midiman> you don't have to 100% adopt all the workflows n' tool ideas they do but keep stuff in mind
Nov 20 04:46:24 <Midiman> keep stuff in mind etc
Nov 20 04:46:29 * DiscoShark ([email protected]) has joined #skullgirls
Nov 20 04:46:42 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: THEN YOU HAVE NOT DONE MOST OF THE WORK, because the things I'm asking for are BASIC BUILDING BLOCKS of a fighting game.
Nov 20 04:46:49 <wippler-wrokn> You don't seem to understand that part.
Nov 20 04:47:00 <EvaXephon> How is it not impressive that I single-handedly created a fighting game? I made a game with intros, idles, walks, runs, jumps, dashes, airdashes, specials, health meters, super meters, throws, airthrows, and I hand-animated every animation myself. Isn't that impressive? Isn't that respect-worthy/
Nov 20 04:47:09 <EvaXephon> So there's an organization problem. Can't I hear a single encouraging word? :/
Nov 20 04:47:17 <Midiman> no-one is taking away your progress
Nov 20 04:47:21 <EvaXephon> Like, all I'm hearing is, "You suck at everything, I'd never hire you, I'd never work for you."
Nov 20 04:47:25 <Midiman> the fact you got here is it's own encouragement
Nov 20 04:47:27 <Midiman> your own validity
Nov 20 04:47:36 <Midiman> but you still have a ways to go
Nov 20 04:47:47 <EvaXephon> Nope. Nothing has validity anymore. I started making a game *because* of Mike Z, and then he personally shat on it.
Nov 20 04:47:48 <wippler-wrokn> Good job, you did a thing in Unity that runs and renders stuff for you and you made an update loop and some anims.  Good shit, sir.  You only wanna hear that?
Nov 20 04:47:49 <wippler-wrokn> FINE
Nov 20 04:47:53 <EvaXephon> Why should I ever code again?
Nov 20 04:47:55 <wippler-wrokn> Nice job, get back to me when you're done.
Nov 20 04:47:56 <Midiman> who cares if he shat on it
Nov 20 04:48:04 <Midiman> are you making your product solely for him :V
Nov 20 04:48:10 <Kristoph> mike does that
Nov 20 04:48:11 <EvaXephon> So you're saying I *should* ignore him, Midiman? >_>
Nov 20 04:48:22 <Midiman> no just take the advice into account
Nov 20 04:48:30 <wippler-wrokn> *I* will say you should ignore me if I tell you your game is junk.
Nov 20 04:48:31 <MrPeck-work> all he's saying is that the code isn't industry standard yet. that's not a reason to not keep on improving, and certainly not a reason to not listen to his good advice
Nov 20 04:48:47 <EvaXephon> I think a normal person would be incredibly impressed by what I've done, but a hard-nosed programmer would scrutinize things that a layman wouldn't.
Nov 20 04:48:53 <wippler-wrokn> But you shouldn't ignore me if I tell you the engine will have problems in the future, because that's not SUBJECTIVE advice, it's objective.
Nov 20 04:48:54 <Midiman> there's a difference between "your game is shit kill yaself" and "your game needs work, here's some stuff you can improve!"
Nov 20 04:49:22 <EvaXephon> It's hard to hear "here's some stuff you can improve" when Mike phrases things in the...way that he does.
Nov 20 04:49:30 <Midiman> wippler is as wippler is man
Nov 20 04:49:36 <Madohomami> Well if eva's also a beginner then surely grasping an update loop and being able to put something that functions at least mildly well together then that's not bad
Nov 20 04:49:43 <wippler-wrokn> he's a programmer
Nov 20 04:49:48 <Midiman> oyu have to read between the lines and see the points
Nov 20 04:49:49 <wippler-wrokn> he ain't that "beginner"
Nov 20 04:49:59 <Midiman> s/oyu/you (Ouya!)
Nov 20 04:50:17 <IsaVulpes> The question is whether you post stuff here so you get help, or so you get a bunch of guys going "wowwwwwww evaxephon-oniichan is amazing!!1 you're the best guy in the universe"
Nov 20 04:50:35 <DiscoShark> wow i logged in at an interesting time
Nov 20 04:50:38 <EvaXephon> If there is no gratification for what I've done, then it's literally wasted work.
Nov 20 04:50:49 <EvaXephon> If I hear nothing but "you did a poor job" then it's all for nothing.
Nov 20 04:50:57 <wippler-wrokn> Look Eva.  Satisfaction comes from yourself.
Nov 20 04:50:59 <EvaXephon> Like, *why* should I ever code again?
Nov 20 04:51:02 <Midiman> if you're looking for satisfactions from other's
Nov 20 04:51:04 <DiscoShark> i think you're working for the wrong reasons if what you're looking for is gratification
Nov 20 04:51:13 <Midiman> you're already working for the wrong reasons
Nov 20 04:51:28 <BITTERBEE> EvaXephon: He gave you the shortcomings of your unfinished game which you now have the luxury of fixing before much less patient people will have a chance to play it.
Nov 20 04:51:28 <IsaVulpes> If you do shit not so you get shit done / make yourself happy, but so a bunch of nobodies on the internet are impressed, then yeah you probably shouldn't do shit in the first place
Nov 20 04:51:38 <BITTERBEE> Take that as a blessing, make your game better, THEN ask for praise.
Nov 20 04:52:00 <EvaXephon> No *player* will ever know of these alleged shortcomings, though. I wish I could get player feedback on how the game *feels*...
Nov 20 04:52:12 <IsaVulpes> How much praise is Mike getting on the IRC? Everyone just bitches at him. And his game is more finished than yours :^) (not that I have seen your game, but it's a safe assumption)
Nov 20 04:52:12 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: If you think I am harsh, you have no idea what players will be like.  Did you laugh like hell at Airdash Online?
Nov 20 04:52:16 <EvaXephon> Mike Z's not a "nobody" though.
Nov 20 04:52:42 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: with no hitstun and the hitstop problems I just pointed out and no dummy, you can't get useful player feedback yet.
Nov 20 04:52:43 <Madohomami> also, mike, collision stuff again, am i meant to have trig stuff flying around
Nov 20 04:52:52 <Madohomami> because, uh, i do
Nov 20 04:52:59 <wippler-wrokn> Madohomami: trig?  sincostan trig?
Nov 20 04:53:03 <Madohomami> yeah
Nov 20 04:53:21 <MrPeck-work> madohomami you're DxE right?
Nov 20 04:53:25 <Madohomami> yes
Nov 20 04:53:27 <EvaXephon> Of course I can't get useful player feedback yet, like I said, it wasn't ready to be shown off yet.
Nov 20 04:53:37 <wippler-wrokn> It depends on how you handle your movement (angle + speed or X + Y speeds), but for collision of AABBs...no....
Nov 20 04:53:44 <MrPeck-work> if mike's busy or asleep later, I can help you with that stuff on steam when I get home
Nov 20 04:53:49 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: okay look
Nov 20 04:53:58 <EvaXephon> You see only flaws because you only saw poorly organized code written by an amateur programmer. If I showed you the final playable prototype and let you play it with a controller in your hands, I wonder how much different your feedback would have been...
Nov 20 04:54:17 <wippler-wrokn> You showed me an unfinished engine.  I know how to fucking look at unfinished engines, I've been MAKING THEM FOR FIFTEEN YEARS.
Nov 20 04:54:22 <EvaXephon> What did I spend the past several months doing with my life, then? :/
Nov 20 04:54:37 <Midiman> t Madohomami you're probably thinking of http://www.metanetsoftware.com/technique/tutorialA.html
Nov 20 04:54:41 <wippler-wrokn> When I TRY to give you advice about what you're doing that will cause problems in the future you just cry.
Nov 20 04:54:45 <Midiman> AABB needs only 2 rects n go nuts
Nov 20 04:54:52 * Alist1 has quit (Ping timeout: 360 seconds)
Nov 20 04:55:02 <EvaXephon> A big part of the motivation was that I wanted to make a cool game that might impress the prestigious Mike Z and my buddies Skullgirls chat, and look what happened. :/
Nov 20 04:55:12 <EvaXephon> Now nobody here will ever know me as anything other than "That guy who sucks at code"
Nov 20 04:55:17 <wippler-wrokn> I think you are looking at this wrong.
Nov 20 04:55:20 <Midiman> stop assuming
Nov 20 04:55:28 <IsaVulpes> wippler-wrokn: Is it known that the dummy doesn't Reversal-Playback when it's set to "jump" rather than "Manual"? Apparently the 'jump' thing has priority or w/e and dummy just keeps jumping with never playing back the mashed greggor (
Nov 20 04:55:51 <wippler-wrokn> IsaVulpes: yes, anything but manual won't reversal, it's intended but I guess it counts as a bug?
Nov 20 04:56:01 <c_wraith> I wouldn't really call it a bug
Nov 20 04:56:11 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: I'll be impressed when you finish, if it's what you want it to be and bug-free.  I don't care if you can do combos or charge meter or don't even HAVE a meter.  I care if your code is solid and easy to mess with.
Nov 20 04:56:24 <IsaVulpes> Why's this not a bug c_wraith and why is this intended :O
Nov 20 04:56:31 <wippler-wrokn> And if you're making the game to impress OTHER PEOPLE you are making it for the WRONG REASON.
Nov 20 04:56:44 * Madohomami has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
Nov 20 04:56:44 <EvaXephon> Isn't that what all games are made for? To give other people a cool, fun experience?
Nov 20 04:56:46 * Alist1 ([email protected]) has joined #skullgirls
Nov 20 04:57:02 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: hell no.  I made SG because I wanted to play something like SG.
Nov 20 04:57:20 <wippler-wrokn> As long as one other person likes it so I can play them at a decent level, I don't care if YOU do or VULPES does or whatever.
Nov 20 04:57:20 <Midiman> you make games to make a game you wanna play tho
Nov 20 04:57:23 * Morelia ([email protected]) has joined #skullgirls
Nov 20 04:57:50 <IsaVulpes> DiscoShark: p.s. do u still play dis game
Nov 20 04:57:52 <EvaXephon> I just wanted to create something cool and show it to people and let them have fun with it. But now it's not my cool fighting game, now it's only regarded as a jumbled mess of code that nobody here will ever be able to take serously.
Nov 20 04:58:06 <Midiman> it's not even done why do you care what people think of it yet
Nov 20 04:58:09 <wippler-wrokn> You ain't makin a game to make ME go "shit that's cool" because if you started with Unity I won't be impressed anyway, you didn't write the renderer or the engine.  :^P
Nov 20 04:58:23 * Pheokachu ([email protected]) has joined #skullgirls
Nov 20 04:58:30 <IsaVulpes> EvaXephon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx66cccr00s
Nov 20 04:58:34 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: what're you, twelve?  If it gets serious, people will take it seriously.  You remember the old SG builds? (^.")
Nov 20 04:59:12 <EvaXephon> My code now is 10x better than the code I wrote a year ago, and I was proud of that. I was really proud of how far I'd come. But now, I don't have a single thing to be proud of.
Nov 20 04:59:27 <BITTERBEE> If you can't be proud of self-accomplishment, then what CAN you be proud of?
Nov 20 04:59:39 <Duckator> Keep at it and it'll be 10x better than the code you have now
Nov 20 05:00:02 <EvaXephon> Why would I ever bother pursuing a dream ever again, when this is the outcome?
Nov 20 05:00:03 <wippler-wrokn> So advice is negativity now...
Nov 20 05:00:11 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: WELCOME TO MY FUCKING WORLD
Nov 20 05:00:16 <wippler-wrokn> man up
Nov 20 05:00:30 <wippler-wrokn> been gettin' shit on since 2008 for SG
Nov 20 05:00:50 <wippler-wrokn> that isn't why I do what I do
Nov 20 05:01:15 <wippler-wrokn> I mostly do it to shut people up.  :^P
Nov 20 05:01:16 <EvaXephon> Well, I guess I'm glad that this happened sooner rather than later. Now I have a good reason to drop my game and stop working on it now, rather than waste more of my time on it. I guess it was good that I finally learned that it's shit, and I'm shit, and that I'm a terrible programmer nobody should hire or work for.
Nov 20 05:01:28 <wippler-wrokn> No, you're a teenager, apparently.
Nov 20 05:01:31 <BITTERBEE> You got all the wrong messages out of what mike told you??
Nov 20 05:01:42 <IsaVulpes> EvaXephon should make a game together with BrandX
Nov 20 05:01:49 <Midiman> LOL
Nov 20 05:02:01 <Duckator> Brand and Eva are the new Alex and Mike
Nov 20 05:02:14 <Midiman> that would be interesting
Nov 20 05:02:20 <EvaXephon> That's what I wanted it to be. I wanted to be Mike Z. I wanted to meet somebody cool who could be my Alex Ahad.
Nov 20 05:02:22 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: the difference between what I said and what you said is, I said "there're some things you're doing wrong, maybe you should change stuff" and you said "NO" and THEN you said "I'm shit and nobody loves me because I'm doing things wrong"
Nov 20 05:02:28 <wippler-wrokn> did you miss the entire point of the last MONTH?
Nov 20 05:02:50 <wippler-wrokn> Your attitude is ALL wrong.
Nov 20 05:02:52 <EvaXephon> You said a lot more than "there are some things you're doing wrong". I mean, your words "I'd never hire you" and "I'd never work for you" are still sitting there in my chatroom.
Nov 20 05:03:12 <wippler-wrokn> well yeah, that's because I've been giving you advice for the last month and you've been telling me I'm wrong
Nov 20 05:03:13 <BITTERBEE> Is that reason to gloss over the legitimate criticism he DID give?
Nov 20 05:03:16 <wippler-wrokn> with that attitude NOBODY will hire you
Nov 20 05:03:23 <EvaXephon> Can you really say such abrasive things and think that someone's going to go "Thanks Mike for all the wonderful advice <3"
Nov 20 05:03:35 <wippler-wrokn> It didn't start out abrasive, dude.
Nov 20 05:03:49 <wippler-wrokn> But at this point you ain't listenin' anyway, so I am direct.
Nov 20 05:04:10 <wippler-wrokn> It started out as "this'll cause problems" "NO I AM DOING THINGS FINE"
Nov 20 05:04:52 <EvaXephon> It started out as "You're a fool for using spreadsheets and I'm going to mock you every time I ever see you in IRC by reminding you that spreadsheets are bad and you're bad" and "Mike, I tried to make something cool, take a look!"
Nov 20 05:05:05 <wippler-wrokn> You missed a step
Nov 20 05:05:22 <wippler-wrokn> the bit where you said "Spreadsheets are fine despite you telling me that for possibly legitimate reasons I'm not interested in"
Nov 20 05:06:38 <EvaXephon> Taking your advice regarding the spreadsheets would have meant re-writing the entire game from scratch. That's a BIG call to make. I wasn't sure if you were over-reacting or if you misunderstood my system.
Nov 20 05:06:53 <wippler-wrokn> So, rather than clarify or ask, you ignored it.
Nov 20 05:07:14 <Mwisk> quick question, if it's possible to answer, as far as moves go, BB only miss his parry and last super, or will he get a command grab? I'm trying some possible setups here.
Nov 20 05:07:20 <wippler-wrokn> Mwisk: no grab
Nov 20 05:07:32 <Mwisk> omg! what is this drama... *walksaway
Nov 20 05:07:38 <Mwisk> thanks Mike! o/
Nov 20 05:07:42 <BITTERBEE> It's a little funny how parry was the first thing ever shown of Big Band, and it's gonna end up being one of the last things he gets.
Nov 20 05:07:43 <EvaXephon> Well, you're not the most approachable person. Every time I ask you a question I get a lecture about how stupid I am and how stupid my question is. Can you blame me for not wanting to ask you for clarification?
Nov 20 05:07:57 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: the thing I'm trying to explain is that I have SEEN engines with spreadsheets.  Yours isn't new or clever or different, it's a spreadsheet, and there are inherent limitations in that.
Nov 20 05:08:12 <wippler-wrokn> JUST AS there are inherent limitations with organizing things in a giant Update() fuction for the character
Nov 20 05:08:26 <wippler-wrokn> but you don't want to believe I might know that without knowing YOUR engine specifically
Nov 20 05:08:44 <c_wraith> 13 hours should be more than long enough for a background music track, right?
Nov 20 05:09:15 <wippler-wrokn> Ten minutes for (incompletely) adding a move motion that's never been in your game before is HILARIOUS.  In SG it's ten seconds, and even in KI it's like a minute.
Nov 20 05:09:24 <Duckator> Background music for what?  That seems excessive
Nov 20 05:09:45 <EvaXephon> That's really not related to the system. That's just me being slow at what I do.
Nov 20 05:09:52 <c_wraith> I'm just looking at limits.  Using a signed 32-bit number to track number of samples, I get 13 hours of samples.
Nov 20 05:09:52 <wippler-wrokn> It IS related to the system
Nov 20 05:10:00 <wippler-wrokn> because you have to individually do all the conditions for each motion
Nov 20 05:10:27 * Alist1 has quit (Ping timeout: 360 seconds)
Nov 20 05:10:36 <wippler-wrokn> c_wraith: most BGM is under 12m, if you're looking to save space you could just use a uint16 and a next-chunk address at the end?
Nov 20 05:10:50 <EvaXephon> I can't fathom how it could work differently than it does. I'm not an experienced enough programmer, and I haven't seen an alternative before. Maybe if I saw the Z Engine I'd know exactly how a game engine *SHOULD* work, but that'll never happen.
Nov 20 05:11:10 <wippler-wrokn> Z Engine works like this:  Motion:  D,DF,F+*P
Nov 20 05:11:12 <wippler-wrokn> literally
Nov 20 05:11:14 <c_wraith> EvaXephon: did you ever see any of the broadcasts mike did of himself adding stuff?
Nov 20 05:11:14 <wippler-wrokn> that's the script
Nov 20 05:11:16 * DDB ([email protected]) has joined #skullgirls
Nov 20 05:11:32 <wippler-wrokn> also yeah I broadcast like hours of junk
Nov 20 05:12:25 <EvaXephon> Now that I've heard the suggestion of making the game engine work that way and take input like that, I want to code it myself. I probably couldn't do it as fast as you, but I'd get it done eventually. But I didn't have that idea at the time. Instead, I went with what seemed intelligent at the time.
Nov 20 05:12:30 <BITTERBEE> I miss those broadcasts ;-;
Nov 20 05:13:00 <wippler-wrokn> BITTERBEE: I'll be getting a sick laptop soon
Nov 20 05:13:03 <EvaXephon> It'd be nice if I had a walkthrough of how to replicate the Z Engine and make my engine work exactly the way that yours does, but I don't have any such guide. I just had to go with what I thought would work.
Nov 20 05:13:22 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: "now that I've heard the suggestion" I have been GIVING you FUCKING suggestions about other things that you have been IGNORING
Nov 20 05:13:28 <wippler-wrokn> oh my god I hope you have a kid that has your attitude
Nov 20 05:13:39 <wippler-wrokn> (my dad told me that once :^)
Nov 20 05:13:45 <EvaXephon> (I don't get it)
Nov 20 05:13:53 <BITTERBEE> So more code streams in the future? Can't waitttt
Nov 20 05:13:57 <wippler-wrokn> BITTERBEE: yep
Nov 20 05:13:59 <DiscoShark> (hes saying he hopes you have to deal with what you're putting him through right now, in the future)
Nov 20 05:14:21 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: the guide..is...me...telling you things.  That you ignore.  MANY TIMES.
Nov 20 05:14:25 <Duckator> I want to see what it takes to give BB his parry
Nov 20 05:14:25 <EvaXephon> If you made a giant guide on exactly how a fighting game engine should work, I'd follow it to a T. But I didn't have such a guide, and your "Suggestions" were peppered with too many insults for me to really get anything out of them.
Nov 20 05:14:44 <DiscoShark> mike should just teach a class 
Nov 20 05:14:46 <wippler-wrokn> sit down and thing about how a character is organized
Nov 20 05:14:47 <BITTERBEE> The jabs he took at you doesn't make the legitimate advice magically disappear, Eva
Nov 20 05:14:49 <wippler-wrokn> they're a STATE MACHINE
Nov 20 05:14:58 <wippler-wrokn> they don't have one giant goddamn update function, they have STATES
Nov 20 05:15:02 <c_wraith> Can I make them Mealy machines instead?
Nov 20 05:15:09 <c_wraith> I like Mealy machines
Nov 20 05:15:24 * Domo ([email protected]) has joined #skullgirls
Nov 20 05:15:32 <wippler-wrokn> c_wraith: okay fine they're a Mealy machine since state plays a role
Nov 20 05:15:41 <EvaXephon> When a person says "You did it wrong" you want to know what you did wrong. When a person says "You did it wrong, idiot" it's difficult to ignore the "idiot" part.
Nov 20 05:15:42 <c_wraith> (the obvious answer is yes, since a Mealy machine is just a particular encoding of a state machine anyway)
Nov 20 05:16:07 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: then I will call you an idiot forever even with praise because you need a thicker skin
Nov 20 05:16:13 <wippler-wrokn> as should everyone else
Nov 20 05:16:15 <wippler-wrokn> because
Nov 20 05:16:24 <wippler-wrokn> it is completely irrelevant what we call you
Nov 20 05:16:27 <wippler-wrokn> only what we tell you.
Nov 20 05:16:28 <EvaXephon> That's exactly the opposite way of how to get me to take you more seriously...
Nov 20 05:16:43 <wippler-wrokn> If being called names makes you curl up in a ball and die then you're not yet an adult.
Nov 20 05:16:54 <Midiman> how's this still going on :P
Nov 20 05:17:05 <EvaXephon> It hurts when it comes from the man who was my inspiration.
Nov 20 05:17:11 <BITTERBEE> Through sheer force of will, Midiman
Nov 20 05:17:11 <IsaVulpes> EvaXephon: I think you're misunderstanding something
Nov 20 05:17:23 <EvaXephon> An insult means nothing if it comes from a random nobody, but you're not nobody.
Nov 20 05:17:32 <c_wraith> I'm going to be up all night programming again...  yay vacation!
Nov 20 05:17:47 <Duckator> Eva, get over that and focus on the important stuff
Nov 20 05:18:04 <IsaVulpes> Mike is GIVING something to you, not REQUESTING. If you don't take what he says seriously, that's YOUR loss, not HIS. 
Nov 20 05:18:06 <wippler-wrokn> If the dude who is your inspiration tells you you are possibly doing things the wrong way, how is your reaction to NOT listen?
Nov 20 05:18:22 <wippler-wrokn> srsly, what kind of ego does that take?
Nov 20 05:18:30 <EvaXephon> I didn't think I necessarily needed to follow EVERY step and recreate your engine EXACTLY.
Nov 20 05:18:35 <wippler-wrokn> you don't
Nov 20 05:18:39 <wippler-wrokn> nor would I have you do that
Nov 20 05:18:56 <EvaXephon> What kind of ego does it take to make you think that everyone should do exactly what you say and code exactly the way you think they should?
Nov 20 05:18:56 <wippler-wrokn> which is why I didn't say "make it this way" I said "basing things on spreadsheets can cause problems you have't had yet"
Nov 20 05:18:58 * Taylor ([email protected]) has joined #skullgirls
Nov 20 05:19:50 <EvaXephon> You pretty strongly implied that my entire game is worth NOTHING if it uses spreadsheets.
Nov 20 05:19:56 <EvaXephon> You weren't simply giving advice.
Nov 20 05:20:03 <wippler-wrokn> And that MUST be an incorrect implication, right?
Nov 20 05:20:07 <wippler-wrokn> it can't be correct
Nov 20 05:20:24 <wippler-wrokn> it can't be based on my past experience with fighting game engines from...let's see...8 different companies now?
Nov 20 05:21:00 <wippler-wrokn> I mean, I get that it sucks that I said you're doing something wrong, but does that mean I'm not correct about it?
Nov 20 05:21:25 <BITTERBEE> EvaXephon: This is getting to me a little, why are you deflecting the advice Mike gives because of his tone? You know he has experience, he isn't saying these things are bad just to get under your skin.
Nov 20 05:21:33 <DDB> http://24.media.tumblr.com/5207f79b75b22a59c675e9af31f53162/tumblr_mwjr5y1d5l1s5mfnno1_1280.png
Nov 20 05:21:45 <BITTERBEE> DDB what the heck is that
Nov 20 05:21:45 <DiscoShark> I saw that, DDB
Nov 20 05:21:49 <DiscoShark> not sure about the glasses ...
Nov 20 05:21:54 <EvaXephon> The point is no longer "using spreadsheets was a bad idea". That point was made a long time ago. The point is that now you and everyone else in the chatroom thinks that my game is shit, and the entire point of me working on my game was to create something cool that people might like, you guys included.
Nov 20 05:21:56 <DiscoShark> and the extra sword 
Nov 20 05:22:14 <EvaXephon> Which means I've wasted my time and lost any motivation I had to work on my game
Nov 20 05:22:18 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: your game isn't far enough along to be shit, or not shit.
Nov 20 05:22:25 <wippler-wrokn> it's unfinished
Nov 20 05:22:27 <Duckator> If your game is shit then make it not shit
Nov 20 05:22:29 <wippler-wrokn> that's its' own category
Nov 20 05:22:31 <DiscoShark> You've brought this up before and we all took turns saying "stop caring about what we think, keep working on what you want to work on"
Nov 20 05:22:31 <EvaXephon> That's probably the nicest thing you've said all night
Nov 20 05:22:57 * Domo has quit (Ping timeout: 360 seconds)
Nov 20 05:23:05 <IsaVulpes> If the goal is to create something good, and it's not good, and someone tells you how to make it good, why do you run into a corner crying instead of saying "Mhh oh alright, I'll fix this"
Nov 20 05:23:07 * Jello has quit (Ping timeout: 360 seconds)
Nov 20 05:23:13 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: You don't WANT my advice, you just want to work how you want and have my praise.  Fine.  Then from now on I will simply judge your game based on what it has compared to a FINISHED game.
Nov 20 05:23:56 <EvaXephon> I'm not a good enough programmer to program it any other way than how it is currently programmed. I'd need super explicit advice to get it to work any other way. I'd need, like, a step-by-step walkthrough.
Nov 20 05:24:07 <EvaXephon> I programmed it the only way I knew how.
Nov 20 05:24:07 <Midiman> sounds like a thing you should fix
Nov 20 05:24:13 <wippler-wrokn> also what the hell, I have never EVER said the game was bad.  The game isn't even a GAME yet.  The engine is not good and will give you problems in the future.  But I mean the game has no HITSTUN, no THROWS, probably no BLOCKING, it's not even like 5% of the way to a prototype...
Nov 20 05:24:23 <EvaXephon> ...it has throws >_>
Nov 20 05:24:57 <wippler-wrokn> in your mind the followup to that is "ergo Mike's entire statement was incorrect"
Nov 20 05:25:03 <EvaXephon> ...no...
Nov 20 05:25:35 <EvaXephon> ...it's certainly not 5% of a prototype, though. It has 80% of the features I want it to have. It was almost done, barring supers, AI, and P2 input. And hitstun.
Nov 20 05:25:38 * c001357_ ([email protected]) has joined #skullgirls
Nov 20 05:25:46 <wippler-wrokn> and blocking
Nov 20 05:25:53 <EvaXephon> Yeah, that's included in P2 input...
Nov 20 05:26:00 <wippler-wrokn> it's a state set
Nov 20 05:26:04 <wippler-wrokn> it's not like "oh you block"
Nov 20 05:26:10 <wippler-wrokn> also er
Nov 20 05:26:16 <wippler-wrokn> hitstun is well over 70% of a character
Nov 20 05:26:25 <wippler-wrokn> but you didn't do it yet so you don't know that
Nov 20 05:26:30 <Alice> EvaXephon: Does it have fur-fetish pandering characters, ponies, or any other kind of creepy unorthodox character archetypes in it?
Nov 20 05:26:32 <wippler-wrokn> you think what you made now is complicated?
Nov 20 05:26:45 <EvaXephon> Could an amateur coder make it?
Nov 20 05:27:00 <wippler-wrokn> you're an amateur coder, judging by the code, so yes
Nov 20 05:27:09 <wippler-wrokn> you didn't write the renderer, the input reading system, the engine itself
Nov 20 05:27:15 <wippler-wrokn> Unity did that
Nov 20 05:27:17 * c001357 has quit (Ping timeout: 360 seconds)
Nov 20 05:27:18 * c001357_ is now known as c001357
Nov 20 05:27:19 <EvaXephon> Well of course I didn't, why re-invent the wheel?
Nov 20 05:27:27 <EvaXephon> Unity's an excellent tool.
Nov 20 05:27:31 <wippler-wrokn> I agree
Nov 20 05:27:48 <wippler-wrokn> it lets amateurs skip a lot of the dirty work that normally helped them be not-amateurs by the time they got to input
Nov 20 05:28:17 <BITTERBEE> That stuff isn't reinventing the wheel. If it was, everyone would use unity and not bother with making their own engine.
Nov 20 05:28:21 <EvaXephon> I don't think the skills to create a renderer grant one the skills necessary to know how to make the Z Engine
Nov 20 05:28:27 <wippler-wrokn> You wanna be a professional coder?  Write me a renderer from scratch.  Write a cross-platform file reading system.  Write an input parser.  Write a factory class. :^P
Nov 20 05:28:52 <wippler-wrokn> Learn how to spot bugs in your own code like I did in the stream chat, without having to run it first.
Nov 20 05:29:13 <EvaXephon> Having a bug, noticing it, and fixing it, is just part of the programming process...
Nov 20 05:29:19 <wippler-wrokn> Learn why a giant Update() function for your character state machine is a bad idea....
Nov 20 05:29:51 <wippler-wrokn> And yes, that's true, but completely thinking through all the steps of what you're doing comes from experience.
Nov 20 05:30:07 <EvaXephon> I did the best I could with the limited experience and knowledge I had... :/
Nov 20 05:30:21 <Midiman> stop acting like there is a ceiling
Nov 20 05:30:23 <Midiman> just keep at it wtf
Nov 20 05:30:23 <DiscoShark> stop using that as an excuse
Nov 20 05:30:32 <wippler-wrokn> I'm with DiscoShark 
Nov 20 05:30:40 <Duckator> Take that as a sign to gain more experience and knowledge
Nov 20 05:30:42 <EvaXephon> Keep at it? Why? So Mike can yell at me again? So the people in the chat can say how funny or painful it is to see my code?
Nov 20 05:30:50 <EvaXephon> I have no reason to ever come here again, much less work on the engine again
Nov 20 05:30:58 <wippler-wrokn> THAT's what you got out of this?
Nov 20 05:30:59 <Midiman> if you feel that way I aint gonna stop you lol
Nov 20 05:31:05 <Alice> <div id = "Z_Engine"><p class = "babbyBoo"> I can make a <b>VIDEO-GAME</b>, babby boo boo! </p></div>
Nov 20 05:31:09 <Alice> I am best coder.
Nov 20 05:31:10 <EvaXephon> Everything I've worked on for months is now completely ruined
Nov 20 05:31:13 <Alice> Most professional.
Nov 20 05:31:20 <Alice> Heed my advice.
Nov 20 05:31:23 <wippler-wrokn> Actually, the stuff you've worked on for months is still there.
Nov 20 05:31:25 <Midiman> 's just like one of my japanese animes
Nov 20 05:31:37 <wippler-wrokn> And now you know it could be better.
Nov 20 05:32:05 <wippler-wrokn> But instead of improving it by maybe TAKING some advice, or even just IMPROVING it, you're content to complain because it wasn't shiny and amazing the first time.
Nov 20 05:32:07 <Midiman> tl;dr if you're only making a thing for recognition, appreciation and fame instead of because you want to do it and see it bear fruit
Nov 20 05:32:10 <Midiman> then just.. what are you even
Nov 20 05:32:15 <Alice> When am I going to be employed to do typographic work for SG.
Nov 20 05:32:28 <BITTERBEE> When Molly gets in
Nov 20 05:32:28 <wippler-wrokn> Alice: was that your stuff in those vids?  :^)
Nov 20 05:32:40 <DDB> Forget Molly when's Annie
Nov 20 05:32:56 <wippler-wrokn> EvaXephon: Remember when people found that pushblock bug with Filia's Fenrir?  Maybe not.
Nov 20 05:33:02 <Alice> That was a demo vid I made during a uni project of applying hand drawn type to a context.
Nov 20 05:33:05 <wippler-wrokn> I'm sure Vulpes can find it.
Nov 20 05:33:06 <EvaXephon> It debuted long before it was supposed to, and it debuted by you scrutinizing the code, instead of me showing off cool animations, etc.
Nov 20 05:33:24 <Alice> There was a bunch more, but yeah I drew it all by hand.
Nov 20 05:33:29 <Alice> (Obviously)
Nov 20 05:33:34 <EvaXephon> If things hadn't worked out this way, maybe you guys would have seen and loved the front-end and never even seen or been able to judge the back-end
Nov 20 05:33:39 <DiscoShark> Right now its funny that you're melting down this hard after getting criticism about a foundation for a fighting game that you admitted was unfinished and incomplete to begin with. It sucks to be the guy with the bad (but unfinished and potentially not bad) game but it sucks more to be the dude who up and left after getting genuinely useful advice about where to go from what you had. If you...
Nov 20 05:33:40 <DiscoShark> ...care so much about peoples opinion of you and your work then start caring about what we'll all collectively think about you if you just give up it for the reasons you've listed
Nov 20 05:33:54 <wippler-wrokn> You don't want me to talk about your model or animations, so we'll avoid talking about that.
Nov 20 05:34:07 <wippler-wrokn> For the
Nov 20 05:34:08 <IsaVulpes> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WASwjRyxWfk wippler-wrokn 
Nov 20 05:34:08 <wippler-wrokn> third time
Nov 20 05:34:10 <wippler-wrokn> TONIGHT
Nov 20 05:34:12 <Alice> There's a solution.
Nov 20 05:34:22 <BITTERBEE> Ahaha IsaVulpes
Nov 20 05:34:25 <Alice> Join Mane6, steal the 'Z Engine', and plot revenge.
Nov 20 05:34:26 <wippler-wrokn> I don't, and won't, care about the GAME, I ONLY care about the back end.
Nov 20 05:34:41 <EvaXephon> That's coming from a tourney-level fighting game player/
Nov 20 05:34:41 <wippler-wrokn> take a moment, look at that bug
Nov 20 05:34:48 <wippler-wrokn> yes
Nov 20 05:35:03 <EvaXephon> What about that bug?
Nov 20 05:35:05 <wippler-wrokn> and if you think that you, by yourself, in six months or a year would make a tournament level fighting game, I have your dreams to crush.
Nov 20 05:35:11 <DDB> wippler looks like a guy who would enjoy the back end
Nov 20 05:35:17 <BITTERBEE> DDB pls
Nov 20 05:35:19 * wippler-wrokn takes it in the back end.  Cutely.
Nov 20 05:35:22 * mocaloco has quit (Ping timeout: 360 seconds)
Nov 20 05:35:24 <wippler-wrokn> damn he beat me
Nov 20 05:35:26 <EvaXephon> I didn't think it would be done that quickly...
Nov 20 05:35:37 <wippler-wrokn> So.  That bug.
Nov 20 05:35:49 <BITTERBEE> Then you need to accept that it will be a long uphill battle that will take years. 
Nov 20 05:35:55 <wippler-wrokn> That bug is script I wrote at the beginning of SG, for Filia.  The first character.
Nov 20 05:35:56 <BITTERBEE> So why not soak in some knowledge?
Nov 20 05:36:09 <wippler-wrokn> It was LUDICROUSLY bad.  HILARIOUSLY bad.
Nov 20 05:36:35 <wippler-wrokn> Looking back at it, I would have yelled at my past self if I'd had the knowledge I have now.
Nov 20 05:36:42 <Alice> No offense to Mike, I think that looking at SG you can see how difficult it really is to create a fighting game that isn't entirely ridiculous and worthwhile at a 'competitive' level when you're working with your own rule-sets and assets.
Nov 20 05:36:46 <EvaXephon> ...I have those moments too...
Nov 20 05:36:54 <Alice> So much tweaking takes place, and you'll receive a lot of criticism.
Nov 20 05:37:01 <Alice> Because people WILL break your game.
Nov 20 05:37:05 <wippler-wrokn> So WHY THE HELL do you choose to ignore my advance, you dumb shit?
Nov 20 05:37:06 <Duckator> What about that game freezing DHC glitch from vanilla?
Nov 20 05:37:08 <Alice> I'll sure as hell be able to break it.
Nov 20 05:37:14 <DDB> If there were multiple Mikes working on SG nothing would ever get done because they'd disagree on everything
Nov 20 05:37:25 <wippler-wrokn> Duckator: that was actually coded perfectly, it was a typo :^P
Nov 20 05:37:37 <BITTERBEE> Hah
Nov 20 05:37:53 <wippler-wrokn> And WHY do you think that everything is going to be perfect?  Nothing's ever done, it's just as good as it is when it needs to be.
Nov 20 05:38:06 <Romancia> Like the invincibility typo in Squigly's Divekick? :p
Nov 20 05:38:15 <DDB> It was in her DP
Nov 20 05:38:22 <Romancia> Oh yeah
Nov 20 05:38:27 <wippler-wrokn> No syntax highlighting for SG script (anyone want to make one for Textpad?  heh)
Nov 20 05:38:29 <Romancia> I was even thinking dp
Nov 20 05:38:32 <DDB> When's invincible divekicks
Nov 20 05:38:37 <Alice> wippler-wrokn: http://imgur.com/a/KmAt3#3
Nov 20 05:38:39 <Romancia> Why the fuck did I type Divekick
Nov 20 05:38:46 <IsaVulpes> wippler-wrokn: why are you never this nice to me
Nov 20 05:38:53 <EvaXephon> If your advice was delivered in the most clinical way possible, I'd be able to take it for what it is. But the only thing I can think about right now is that I busted my ass and worked as hard as I could and not a single person has a single positive thing to say about any of it. That's dream-crushing. That's devastating.
Nov 20 05:38:56 <Romancia> Probably time to go home
Nov 20 05:39:13 <IsaVulpes> Alice: you wrote 'stoner' wrong
Nov 20 05:39:17 <Alice> I'll make one that says 'I LOVE GREGOR SAMSON'.
Nov 20 05:39:22 <EvaXephon> Why continue working on it at all? This will just happen again. I never want this to happen again.
Nov 20 05:39:26 <Alice> Also, every girl in Glasgow is a stoner.
Nov 20 05:39:29 <Alice> I should change it.
Nov 20 05:39:32 <BITTERBEE> EvaXephon: Do you always expect positive reinforcement out of the criticism of people who have no obligation to be nice towards you ever?
Nov 20 05:39:42 <wippler-wrokn> You used fixed dt.  That's a huge good thing, one that I frequently have to tell big companies.  But if your ego needs to hear that you did that CORRECTLY, you and me are never going to get along.
Nov 20 05:40:00 <wippler-wrokn> Alice: that's pretty damn good
Nov 20 05:40:39 <DDB> but what does it all mean
Nov 20 05:40:40 <Kristoph> eva i haven't been paying a huge amount of attention to this stuff but i still want to give you a hug and stuff
Nov 20 05:40:42 <wippler-wrokn> I'm not here to stroke your cock, Eva.  I'm here to tell you how to avoid screwups in the future.
Nov 20 05:40:44 <EvaXephon> All I ever wanted was to meet my hero, get along with him, and have fighting game buddies who I could show my fighting game too. I can't even have that ._.
Nov 20 05:40:48 <IsaVulpes> Alice: did you use chinese numbers just because, or are jp and chinese ones the same?
Nov 20 05:40:50 <EvaXephon> I don't know if I'll ever be back.

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