User:Hipcrime/wikipedia-en-2013-07-01

--- Log opened Mon Jul 01 00:00:52 2013
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00:12 < LtNOWIS2> I have it bookmarked on this computer
00:12 < LtNOWIS2> a fine Polandball comic: http://i.imgur.com/VvEyavQ.png
00:12 < Ecco_the_Dolphin> there are some weird searching noises coming form next door
00:14 < SuicidalZerg> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WEjdJzUdAg
00:15 < Ecco_the_Dolphin> *scratching
00:20 < Ecco_the_Dolphin> http://t.qkme.me/3v0r30.jpg
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00:38 < Ecco_the_Dolphin> the nintendo guy hasnt been here in a while
00:41 < GorillaWarfare> Ecco_the_Dolphin: What, one day?
00:41 < SigmaWP>  The reason China had such a horrible 19th and 20th century, and the Qing lost power, is because there was essentially a 60-year period1 of constant war, famine, and a general collapse of traditional society due to the upheavals caused by the introduction of European ways, especially opium, Christianity, and the potato.
00:41 < SigmaWP> The potato
00:41 < SigmaWP> What
00:43 < Firefly67> 3 great addictions - drugs, religion, and carbs
00:43 < Firefly67> SigmaWP ^
00:43 < SigmaWP> ah
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00:49 < Ecco_the_Dolphin> no way
00:49 < Ecco_the_Dolphin> no one gets addicted to potatoes
00:49 < Ecco_the_Dolphin> unless youre saying indirectly that it's for alcohol or something
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00:50 < Ironholds> well, you're overthinking
00:50 < Ironholds> it could be economic
00:50 < Ecco_the_Dolphin> come to think of it I dont know any Chinese alcoholic drinks
00:50 < Ironholds> potato is better at thriving than traditional staple foods leading to a population glut as food gets cheaper coupled with rising unemployment in farming classes.
00:51 < heatherw> also they are evil
00:51 < heatherw> little known fact
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00:52 < Ecco_the_Dolphin> oh right, they have beer
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00:53 < Ecco_the_Dolphin> I dont drink so I tend to pretty much tune out the signs for alcoholic drinks when I go to restaurants
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00:59 < Firefly67> Ecco_the_Dolphin: Potato chip addiction is very real.
01:00 < barglfargl> Ecco_the_Dolphin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_alcoholic_beverages
01:00 < Firefly67> Ecco_the_Dolphin: Chinese rice wine
01:00 < barglfargl> yeah
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02:18 < Lex|> Hello!
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02:22 < Zhaofeng_Li> Lex|: hi
02:23 < Lex|> One request from my side: has someone the time to review the following article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_creation/Maher_%28NGO%29 - thanks a lot :)
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02:55 < Dcoetzee> Hey can anyone help me with adding some new images to suitable articles with suitable captions?
02:55 < Dcoetzee> They're medical images of the heart
02:55 < Dcoetzee> Donated via OTRS
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03:02 < Lex|> GorillaWarfare: hi! Maybe you remember me, I requested some help about writing an article of the ngo I volunteer for and after we spoke about the difficulties with requested articles (it is unlikely that it will be created in the next year) I decided to write it myself - of course neutrally (and if possible critically). Now I finished the article as far as possible and it is waiting for review here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_c
03:02 < Lex|> reation/Maher_%28NGO%29 I also tried to find tertiary sources with critisism, but couldn't find any (only statements from an interview with the founder about difficulties in the beginning - and as it is a primary source, I didn't put it in).
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03:35 < PontoCom> bye, peeplu!
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04:12 < SigmaWP> night
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05:00 < addihockey10>    
05:05 < closedmouth> ­
05:12 < jubo2> cheezy meatpie!
05:17 < addihockey10>    
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06:56 < Lex|> GorillaWarfare: hi! Maybe you remember me, I requested some help about writing an article of the ngo I volunteer for and after we spoke about the difficulties with requested articles (it is unlikely that it will be created in the next year) I decided to write it myself - of course neutrally (and if possible critically). Now I finished the article as far as possible and it is waiting for review here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Articles_for_c
06:56 < Lex|> reation/Maher_%28NGO%29 I also tried to find tertiary sources with critisism, but couldn't find any (only statements from an interview with the founder about difficulties in the beginning - and as it is a primary source, I didn't put it in).
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06:59 < TeeTylerToe> If he doesn't respond to you here, as a lot of people aren't always watching the room, you could leave a message on his talk page
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07:12 < Lex|> ah, thanks TeeTylerToe
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07:25 < NotASpy> Lex|: that's a really rather good article.
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07:27 < Lex|> NotASpy: thank you! I tried my best :)
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07:30 < Lex|> I have to go now - I am actually still working in one of the children's homes. Greetings to all wikipedians.
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07:48 < wctaiwan> p858snake|l: I take it that it's my connection and not you-know-what?
07:48 < wctaiwan> ...nm
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07:48 < p858snake|l> nah wctaiwan, td is doing it to screw with you
07:49 < wctaiwan> friggin' uni connection..
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08:21 < AnuraB> CPU:pentium(r) dual-core         e5200  @ 2.50ghz Memory:2039MB In-use:67% Display:1152X864 Microsoft Windows XP Professional Service Pack 3 (build 2600) Uptime:00:05:01:42 client:ThrashIRC
08:23 < wctaiwan> AnuraB: time to get a new OS :P
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08:35 < NotASpy> 5hrs uptime ?
08:35 < NotASpy> 13:35  up 62 days, 14:36, 2 users, load averages: 1.32 1.70 1.74
08:40 < TeeTylerToe> windows 8, it's like apple's lisa, a leap into the past
08:41 < TeeTylerToe> it's a lot better than win 7 though, win 7 home has a limit of 8GB ram.  pro 16GB
08:43 < TeeTylerToe> come to think of it xp may have higher ram limits than win 7...  or even 8
08:45  * wctaiwan fans NotASpy's ego
08:45 < wctaiwan> >.>
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08:49 < ToAruShiroiNeko> what about my ego?
08:50 < ToAruShiroiNeko> TeeTylerToe what about win 8.1
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10:03 < LtNOWIS2> So apparently Adam Lanza had a few edits to Wikipedia
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10:04 < SoapX> do we know his username?
10:04 < LtNOWIS2> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Kaynbred
10:04 < LtNOWIS2> http://www.examiner.com/article/newtown-school-shooter-adam-lanza-may-have-edited-wikipedia
10:04 < SoapX> looks like he was planning the shooting for quite some time then
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10:05 < SoapX> essentially all his known edits were related to mass shootings
10:05 < LtNOWIS2> yeah, crappy media sources, by which I mean the Daily Mail, are saying he was "obsessed" with editing Wikipedia
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10:06 < GorillaWarfare> "While the Wikimedia Foundation and hundreds of Wikipedia volunteers tout how useful and appropriate Wikipedia is for even young school children to use and join in participation, it's worthwhile to note that, literally, some editors of Wikipedia might be mass murderers in the making."
10:06 < GorillaWarfare> Nice, Examiner.
10:07 < LtNOWIS2> Did you know that some public school students ended up being serial rapists?
10:07 < LtNOWIS2> Clearly this reflects poorly on our public schooos.
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10:09 < SoapX> hm
10:09 < SoapX> does that site write about us a lot?
10:09 < SoapX> theyve got an article on Russavia
10:09 < SoapX> I didnt know he was "famous" enough to get mentioned by name in a mainstream newspaper
10:10 < LtNOWIS2> don't know much about the Examiner myself
10:10 < SoapX> me neither
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10:11 < LtNOWIS2> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Examiner.com
10:11 < LtNOWIS2> but it's not a "proper" newspaper
10:11 < SoapX> never mind
10:11 < SoapX> it's self-published
10:11 < SoapX> yeah
10:11 < SoapX> still Im sure they dont accept just anything
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10:15 < LtNOWIS2> but like, essentially the article is from the Hartford Courant
10:15 < LtNOWIS2> and they're just going off of that
10:19 < Dcoetzee> "Sandy Hook gunman Adam Lanza was obsessed with correcting Wikipedia entries about mass killers, authorities believe." http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2352249/Revealed-Sandy-Hook-gunman-Adam-Lanza-obsessed-correcting-Wikipedia-articles-mass-killers-admitted-having-bullet-fetish.html
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10:22 < SoapX> yeah its him
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10:30 < Slopabottomus> what was his username?
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10:30 < BlastHardcheese> Jimbo Wales :o
10:31 < Slopabottomus> lol
10:31 < BlastHardcheese> why do you think he had to go on wikibreak
10:35 < TheDruId> Prepping for the Mars journey.
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10:38 < BlastHardcheese> wikimars, the free planetary habitat anyone can edit
10:39 < LtNOWIS2> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Kaynbred
10:39 < LtNOWIS2> I was talking about that earlier
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10:46 < Slopabottomus> danke
10:46 < Slopabottomus> wikipedia can be pretty much like a spanish telenovela
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10:48 < SoapX> yeah
10:48 < SoapX> though i would just say soap opera
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11:14 < SoapX> hi Rcsprinter
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11:15 < Rcsprinter> Hi Soap
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11:20 < LtNOWIS2> I think a current DYK article was previously AfD'd
11:20 < LtNOWIS2> and like, nothing has changed since then
11:21 < SoapX> cool
11:21 < SoapX> its nice to know we're getting more lenient
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11:21 < LtNOWIS2> over the course of like 6 months?
11:22 < SoapX> how could it be a DYK if it was 6 months ago
11:22 < SoapX> unless you mean it was deleted and re-created as a "new" article
11:23 < LtNOWIS2> I'm talking about the royal baby
11:23 -!- TAP|away is now known as thineantiquepen
11:23 < LtNOWIS2> so yeah, different titel
11:24 < LtNOWIS2> But I can't find the old article's AfD when I'm searching for it
11:24 < LtNOWIS2> I mean I'm ok with the article existing now, but I do want to put the previous AfD tag on the talk page
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11:26 < SoapX> Im sure someone would have noticed if it was a recreation of a previous article, even if under a different title
11:27 < LtNOWIS2> well maybe they didn't know
11:27 < LtNOWIS2> I mean the subject is the same, not the content
11:28 < SoapX> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Child_of_Prince_William,_Duke_of_Cambridge
11:29 < LtNOWIS2> nice! How'd you find it.
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11:29 < SoapX> i just searchjed the AfD archive page for "Prince William"
11:30 < SoapX> anyway i misunderstood you earlier
11:30 < LtNOWIS2> bah, I failed at searching then
11:30 < SoapX> i thought you were saying it was a literal word-for-word recreation with almost no changes
11:31 < LtNOWIS2> but like, if we delete an article on Joe Schmo, and then another editor creates an unrelated article, it's supposed to be deleted again
11:31 < LtNOWIS2> it's like, speedy-able.
11:31 < SoapX> only if the content has no significant changes
11:32 < SoapX> that's generally understood to apply mainly to self-promotion articles where one person is just being stubborn and trying to sneak the article in when others arent watching
11:32 < LtNOWIS2> I'm still adding Template:Old AfD to the talk page.
11:32 < SoapX> or to try to wear out the patience of others
11:34 < SoapX> hey nascar
11:34 < SoapX> you here?
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11:34 < SoapX> Nascar1996
11:34 < Nascar1996> hi
11:34 < SoapX> just curious if the {{REVISIONUSER}} bug was fixed for you
11:34 < Nascar1996> yes?
11:34 -!- Adam_WMDE is now known as addshore
11:34 < Nascar1996> I removed it
11:34 < SoapX> try bringing it back?
11:34 < Nascar1996> k
11:34 < SoapX> or do you not want it anymore
11:35 < Nascar1996> Doesn't matter
11:35 < SoapX> well it seems to be working on someone else's page
11:35 < SoapX> but theirs is actually on the talkpage, not an editnotice
11:35 < SoapX> so i wonder if that might somehow be the reason, even though it was working before
11:36 < Nascar1996> Seems like thats the issue
11:36 < Nascar1996> Still doesn't work
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11:37 < SoapX> ok
11:37 < SoapX> Im guessing something changed in the MediaWiki software that affects only transclusions
11:37 < SoapX> because I believe editnotices are considered the same as transclusions
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11:39 < SoapX> yeah it doesnt work for me either
11:40 < SoapX> too bad Im not an admin anywhere else or I could test it to see if it's enwiki only
11:41 < SoapX> or wait
11:41 < SoapX> maybe the other wikis allow non-admins to create edit notices
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11:41 < SoapX> still itll be a pain because i cant delete the mess i make
11:41 < SoapX> so nevermind
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11:47 < SoapX> oooops
11:47 < SoapX> i dleeted my alt account's talkpage
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11:54 < IDoH> hi
11:56  * wctaiwan offers hay
11:56  * wolfgang42 emits photons towards IDoH
11:56 < IDoH> LOL
11:56  * IDoH eats hay
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11:59 < TheDruId> IDoH, Do you sometimes stray into pegasi and unicorns?
11:59 < IDoH> Sometimes, TheDruId. Sometimes.
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12:05 < Mystaceus> h
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12:06 < Mystaceus> Archimaredes: How are you today?
12:06 < Archimaredes> Mystaceus: I'm good, thanks. You?
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12:34 < SoapX> lol "pegasi"
12:35 < SoapX> I guess pegasuses sounds even sillier though
12:35 < TheDruId> SoapX, I forget to include 'Zebras'.
12:36 < SoapX> apparently zebrae is an allowable plural for zebra
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12:51 < NotASpy> Snowden applying for asylum in Russia, if anybody is interested.
12:51 -!- Maryana [~Maryana@wikipedia/Accedie] has joined #wikipedia-en
12:52 < TheDruId> NotASpy, Not Siberia, specifically? Hmn.
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12:53 < SoapX> oh no!
12:53 < SoapX> one of my favorite science fiction authors died
12:53 < NotASpy> teehee. The gulags in particular, TheDruId ?
12:53 < TheDruId> In for a penny, in for a pund.
12:53 < TheDruId> Sorry, *pound.
12:54 < Jan_telco> well, Snowden has done his share since the Germans are up in arms over the NSA the issue isn't going away prior to the federal election in Berlin. Time for him to look for a quiet datscha and retire
12:56 < NotASpy> France is rather displeased too.
12:58 < TheDruId> Maybe he could be elected pope.
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12:59 < FastLizard4> You know, everyone is kinda displeased about the PRISM issue
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12:59 < FastLizard4> Especially the NSA :P
12:59 < Jan_telco> sure but Paris is both unloved in Washngton anyway and running out of economic might. Having Berlin hinting at vetoing the TTIP, as Merkel just did, hurts your campaign funding even as republican in the run-up to the next Congress re-run next year.
12:59 < FastLizard4> The next U.S. federal election cycle is going to be interesting
12:59 < SoapX> obama will win
13:00 < FastLizard4> 9_9
13:00 < SoapX> Obama is the Putin of America
13:00 < FastLizard4> There's only one problem with that
13:00 < SoapX> sure, therell be someone else whos officially in charge
13:00 < FastLizard4> The Constitution
13:00 < SoapX> but we know who's running things behind the scenes
13:00 < FastLizard4> Then again, they've done a good job of ignoring that already
13:01 < TheDruId> FastLizard4, count me out of 'everyone'.
13:01 < JohnLewis> SoapX: People also say Obama is the Mandela of the world.
13:01 < FastLizard4> TheDruId: Can I read your emails then?
13:01 -!- petan [~pidgeon@wikimedia/Petrb] has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
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13:01 < FastLizard4> Just PM me your email addresses and passwords
13:01 < TheDruId> FastLizard4, I haven't had email since 2005.
13:01 < JohnLewis> FastLizard4: I tried that trick on Simon :P
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13:02 < FastLizard4> TheDruId: So let me guess, you don't use telephones or the Internet either?
13:02 < JohnLewis> FastLizard4: He told me his old schools local sysadmin password instead xD
13:02 < FastLizard4> JohnLewis: Olol
13:02 < FastLizard4> JohnLewis: Username admin, password hunter2 ;)
13:03 < TheDruId> FastLizard4, I'm dropping cell service in September, but my Wikipedia account and here on IRC are my only venues.
13:03 < JohnLewis> FastLizard4: He told you? :O
13:03 < NotASpy> Jan_telco: don't forget upsetting France and Germany could be enormously bad for the USA and their NATO baby.
13:03 -!- wctaiwan [~wctaiwan@wikipedia/wctaiwan] has joined #wikipedia-en
13:03 < FastLizard4> TheDruId: So you don't care about the issue since you consider yourself invulnerable?
13:04 < FastLizard4> This is why we have these problems in the first place
13:04 < FastLizard4> This is supposedly a government for the people by the people, but the people don't give a damn
13:04 < TheDruId> FastLizard4, No, I don't care about the issue since I would have given them permission.
13:04 < SoapX> wow I didnt know that there were people with *no* email account
13:04 < FastLizard4> TheDruId: Would you still give them permission if you found out they planned to arrest you as a political prisoner?
13:05 < SoapX> I mean having an email and just not reading it outside of absolutely important things is pretty common. I do that
13:05 < TheDruId> FastLizard4, The US? Sure, would willingly languish in federal jail until they had it sorted.
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13:05 < FastLizard4> TheDruId: Not federal prison, Guantanamo Bay
13:06 < FastLizard4> Which is technicall a military prison, not a federal prison
13:06 < FastLizard4> But where all the political criminals go anyway
13:06 < TheDruId> FastLizard4, I wouldn't blend, but would volunteer as a test case.
13:06 < SoapX> in a druid's outfit
13:07 < NotASpy> TheDruId: you would actually trust a federal prosecutor ? The people who would prosecute their own grandmother if they thought it would get them a promotion or a partner position at a top law firm ?
13:07 < FastLizard4> NotASpy: I'm pretty sure TheDruId is either trolling or just totally uninformed/ignorant about the issues at hand
13:07 < FastLizard4> So....
13:07  * BlastHardcheese reports FastLizard4 for questioning Big Brother
13:07 < TheDruId> NotASpy, no, but I trust the US legal system, including any 12 random jurors.
13:07 < FastLizard4> BlastHardcheese: :O
13:07 < FastLizard4> BlastHardcheese: bb doubleplusgood
13:07 < FastLizard4> :P
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13:08 < FastLizard4> TheDruId: "Military" tribunals have no jury
13:08 < SoapX> every time i see your nick i think of this guy: http://media.npr.org/assets/news/2010/08/13/bonewits-946d77ad9fe47d31648a33318c40740b50637872-s6-c30.jpg
13:08 < NotASpy> TheDruId: but they're not really random, are they. They're chosen by lawyers who have a vested interest in getting assorted fruitcakes, loonies and inbred morons that each side hopes can be persuaded to believe any old hogwash the judge will allow.
13:09 -!- Nascar1996 [~Nascar199@wikipedia/Nascar1996] has quit [Quit: I didn't do it!]
13:09 < FastLizard4> TheDruId: And if you're in Guantanamo Bay you either get a military tribunal or no trial or tribunal at all
13:09 < TheDruId> FastLizard4, retired http://usmilitary.about.com/od/enlistedjobs/a/97l.htm . Not ignorant of it.
13:09 < Jan_telco> NotASpy: Hollande is polling in the low 20s, he is as lame a political duck as Obama; Merkel, on the other hand, is pushed to show some action over data protection - a totemic issue over here - by an angry German public, with both the press and the estlishment falling in line to get on the right side of the swing 11 weeks before the election. First time since 1949 that German mainstream politicians use USA and KGB/Stasi/Gestapo i
13:10 < FastLizard4> Jan_telco: Your message cuts off after "Gestapo" (you hit the IRC line limit)
13:10 < BlastHardcheese> you know who else cut off after gestapo
13:10 < FastLizard4> lol
13:10 < Jan_telco> " in comparative sentences and get applause from all audiences (that have a vote). The NSA manages to tick all the toxic boxes of the indeed very dark German past"
13:11 < FastLizard4> I like how people are like "I know the government will be fair in using the surveilance data" even though PRISM is pretty much a line-by-line violation of the Fourth Ammendment
13:11 < BlastHardcheese> you have something to hide, comrade?
13:12 < FastLizard4> BlastHardcheese: EVERYTHING
13:12  * FastLizard4 hides his French cheeses
13:12 < SoapX> pack your bags, flizz, youre going to Gitmo
13:12 < FastLizard4> SoapX: Nah, I'm going to flee to Finland
13:13 < FastLizard4> Also, they can't take me yet, Windows Update isn't done!  :P
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13:16 < SoapX> whoa
13:16 < FastLizard4> Hasn't Microsoft supposedly stopped supporting Windows XP?
13:16 < FastLizard4> Or is that not until next year?
13:17 < SoapX> "flash flood warning" says NWS. /me looks outside
13:17 < FastLizard4> O_\
13:17 < FastLizard4> O_O
13:17 < FastLizard4> Where are you?
13:18 < Bradford> o_o
13:18 < BlastHardcheese> it's next year
13:18 < SoapX>  Very heavy rainfall rates of 1 to 3 inches per hour are falling with these showers. Flooding of poor drainage areas in urban and rural areas is possible. Be alert for flash flooding.
13:18 < BlastHardcheese> I mean Windows not floods
13:18 < SoapX> obviously hasnt started yet
13:19 < FastLizard4> 10:18:52 < BlastHardcheese> I mean Windows not floods
13:19 < FastLizard4> Heh
13:19 < FastLizard4> :P
13:19 < SoapX> and yeah I think MS scales down support for old OS's in stage
13:19 < SoapX> *stages
13:19 < FastLizard4> "The National Weather Service will now issue all weather advisories one or more years in advance"
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13:22 < SoapX> ok theres the first thunderclap
13:22 < FastLizard4> SoapX: Build your boat now!
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13:24 < LtNOWIS2> Sigh. There's a 24 year old state legislator running for the US Congress in Maine.
13:24 < FastLizard4> LtNOWIS2: 24?  :O
13:24 < FastLizard4> Not bad
13:25 < LtNOWIS2> Yeah, good for him, depressing for me
13:25 < FastLizard4> Why depressing for you?
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13:26  * FastLizard4 kicks Active Directory in the shin
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13:32 < TheDruId> LtNOWIS2, if you're really lucky, they'll be elected, but have to wait for the birthday to take office.
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13:44 < SoapX> wb
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14:02 < Revent> *what would be an 'appropriate' way to clean pages that quote broken citations i.e. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Pages_with_ISBN_errors&from=A (the WP namespace ones...
14:03 < Revent> (or do you just have to ignore em?
14:04 < alisonc> Revent: Nobody is ignoring, was just one minute.
14:05 < alisonc> WAit, I misread that line.
14:05 < Revent> alisonc: :P
14:05 < dtm> Revent: seriously.  why do you prepend your chat lines with random punctuation?
14:05 < dtm> Revent: also, hi
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14:05 < TheDruId> Revent, there are volunteers who work on fixing those, nearly exclusively.
14:05 < dtm> Revent: what do you mean about 'appropriate'?
14:06 < Revent> dtm: tbh? old habits...talk triggers for 'emote', 'pose', etc...
14:06 < dtm> Revent: from where?
14:06 < dtm> where did that ever work?
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14:07 < dtm> and how is it that you never realize that you're not there ;)
14:07 < Revent> TheDruId: Nice, np then... :P
14:07 < FastLizard4> dtm: Because IRC is old and outdated ;P
14:07 < Revent> dtm Things like old multi-line bbs systems from early 90's
14:07 < dtm> :-I
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14:08 < Revent> (non-ip dialup at 14400 for ascii text chat is bawls. :P
14:09 < FastLizard4> Oh dialup
14:09 < FastLizard4> I remember thee
14:09 < FastLizard4> Those were dark times before my parents discovered DSL :P
14:09 < dtm> well, any text over 14400 is pretty fast
14:09 < dtm> those were times before *anybody* discovered DSL.
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14:10 < SoapX> i was on the Internet when we had to pay by the minute
14:10 < dtm> :-[
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14:10 < FastLizard4> SoapX: I have to pay by the minute still
14:10 < FastLizard4> It's called my crappy cellphone service :P
14:11 < SoapX> tracfone?
14:11 < FastLizard4> No, Verizon
14:11 < FastLizard4> Just a reaaaaaaaally low-level plan
14:12 < FastLizard4> Actually, I'm grandfathered into a plan that's no longer offered
14:12 < SoapX> ok Im gonna log in and edit your account to give you more features for no increase in price
14:12 < FastLizard4> That's how crappy it is :P
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14:12 < FastLizard4> Heh
14:13 < Revent> dtm: appropriate I meant "is there a simple non-technical way to fix those?" I interpreted TheDruId as "no, but there are peeps who hunt down 'non-content' "pages" cluttering these cats...
14:14 < TheDruId> Revent, not every cat, obviously, but gnoming has special editors.
14:14 < Revent> (i.e. tracking cats including pages in 'odd' namespaces
14:15 < SoapX> mrrrrraaaaouw
14:15 < Revent> TheDruId: :P
14:15 < Revent> TheDruId: I've 'fixed' a lot of broken cites and ISBN checksums (i.e. look it up in a db)
14:17 < Revent> TheDruId: Maybe you missed I was asking about [[Category:Pages with ISBN errors]]
14:17 < dtm> Revent: well, there was no 'no' there, but you never said exactly what you want.  i mean "wikipedia's broke, so how to fix?" doesn't mean anything.
14:17 < TheDruId> Revent, I try to get them right when I add publications, and sometimes add them when they were missing, but I'm not obsessive about them, myself. I have my own demons to wrangle.
14:18 < dtm> Revent: maybe i missed something, but i dont know what you mean is a non-content page.  you mean in the category page of problems, working on reducing its problematic contents?
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14:18 < Revent> TheDruId: I can 'fix' em halfway mindlessly as I chat and watch tv...a lot are 'simple'...broken convert from 10 to 13...
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14:19 < Revent> dtm: I mean the things like [[Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Argentine History/Evidence]]
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14:20 < Revent> dtm: being in the [[Category:Pages_with_ISBN_errors]]
14:20 < dtm> Revent: so 'yes'
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14:56 < sarahlicity> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Tur needs a lot of working over
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15:24 < Volis-err> what would a Russian soldier do if the safe containing the Nuclear Launch codes does not open (due to any reason)?
15:25 < MartijnH> the same thing a Russian soldier would do if it would open: not launch nukes
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15:26 < Volis-err> Why won't the russian launch nukes anyway? MartijnH
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15:29 < dtm> Volis-err: why are you asking that?  and why in a channel about a web site?
15:30 < Volis-err> I couldn't find a relevant place to ask it anywhere on freenode
15:31 < SoapX> volis has been here before, i think
15:31 < SoapX> hes a regular
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15:32 < dtm> congratulations!
15:33 -!- Volis-err is now known as Volis
15:33 < Volis> I have been here before, yes.
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15:39 < Volis> It turns out that if even if all 3 people with cheget are not reachable/dead there's a system in place which when detects reliably a nuclear strike would launch missiles to guarantee a retaliatory blow.
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15:44 < Ironholds> all: the VisualEditor is about to go live
15:44 < Ironholds> I'm going to make myself available here; if people have questions or bugs, fling them at me.
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15:44 < dtm> Ironholds: what's that?
15:44 < Ironholds> dtm: a rich-text editor for Wikipedia
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15:44 < Ironholds> you'll see in about...10 minutes ;p
15:44 < dtm> Ironholds: is it all new?  i've tried so many add-ons i forgot.
15:45 -!- Jan_telco is now known as Jan_wmf
15:45 < Ironholds> dtm: we've been having editors kick the crap out of it for about a month, so not that new.
15:45 < Ironholds> but, yeah, this is the first time it's been deployed on this scale.
15:45 < dtm> so, by 'no', you mean 'yes'  ;)
15:46 < dtm> well, congratulations
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15:59 < guillom> dtm: this might help :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VisualEditor
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16:12 < dtm> guillom: kthx
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16:13 < Bradford> ._.
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16:14 < dtm> guys, i'm thinking wikipedia doesn't like this, citing a problem with a list-defined reference:  <ref name="The Secret of My Success, credits at Allmusic">{{ cite web | url={{Allmusic|class=album|id=mw0000191675|tab=credits|pure_url=yes}} | title=''The Secret of My Success: Music From The Motion Picture Soundtrack'' credits | date=October 17, 1990 | accessdate=July 1, 2013 | origyear=1987 }}</ref>
16:14 -!- Jamesofur|away is now known as Jamesofur
16:14 < dtm> the error is at the bottom of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tris_Imboden
16:15 -!- Nascar1996 [~Nascar199@wikipedia/Nascar1996] has joined #wikipedia-en
16:15 < dtm> if anyone would care to take a look
16:16 < OlEnglish> i love you
16:16 < tos> dtm: #wikipedia-en-help
16:17 < dtm> OlEnglish: ditto
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16:17 < OlEnglish> aww
16:18 < OlEnglish> now where's whoopi
16:19  * OlEnglish wonders if anyone caught the reference there to a movie
16:19 < dtm> nope.
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16:19 < OlEnglish> Ghost. with patrick swayze and whoopi goldberg
16:19 < OlEnglish> he always replied with ditto to i love you
16:19 -!- UltimateKyurem [638cc469@gateway/web/freenode/ip.99.140.196.105] has joined #wikipedia-en
16:19 < TheDruId> OlEnglish, You Only Live Twice?
16:20 < OlEnglish> old movie but really good
16:20 < dtm> yeah i blocked all that *completely* out.
16:20 < UltimateKyurem> Hi.
16:20 < TheDruId> o/
16:20 < UltimateKyurem> What are you talking about today?
16:21 < TheDruId> UltimateKyurem, broken references, and movies.
16:22 < UltimateKyurem> Broken Refferences?!? That is not good. Why not just find an archive?
16:22 < Cookies52> UltimateKyurem, Visual Editor
16:23 < UltimateKyurem> Cookies52: what does that have to do with archives?
16:23 < Cookies52> Nothing
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16:23 < UltimateKyurem> Cookies52:are you discussing visual editors?
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16:24 < Cookies52> As its being deployed, many people are
16:24 < UltimateKyurem> Cookies52: many people are... What?
16:25 < dtm> Ironholds: so...  they're going to launch it to the public for the first time, by making it the default?  wow.
16:25 < Ironholds> dtm: what do you mean?
16:25 < GorillaWarfare> dtm: For logged-in editors
16:25 < Ironholds> it's been an opt-in since December 2012
16:25 < Ironholds> and has been part of a randomised A/B test since early June.
16:25 < Ironholds> can you think of another interim step between "people get it if they want it", "people get it randomly" and "people get it all the time"?
16:25 < dtm> Ironholds: oic.  so it's been public, but not default, since dec 2012.
16:25 < Ironholds> yup
16:25 < dtm> ok.
16:26 < Ironholds> now we're switching it to default
16:26 < UltimateKyurem> I am totally confused. What are you talking about???
16:26 < Ironholds> UltimateKyurem: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VisualEditor
16:26 < guillom> dtm: it's inly "default" as in "there are now 2 edit tabs, one for VisualEditor and one for wikitext"
16:26 < guillom> only*
16:26 < UltimateKyurem> Thanks.
16:26 < dtm> Ironholds: and the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VisualEditor page is accurate in saying that the new public default editor is known to be buggy and limited?
16:26 < dtm> Ironholds: or is that information old
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16:27 < Ironholds> dtm: it needs to be updated; we know there will be some problems, because, well, it's software.
16:27 < dtm> guillom: two tabs is probably a good idea.
16:27 < Ironholds> the only way to only deploy when it's perfect is never to deploy.
16:27 < guillom> dtm: and two edit links for section titles
16:28 < dtm> guillom: that's good
16:28 < dtm> so.  given the known buggy output that it generates, i wonder if it's easy to manually identify and fix those in wikitext.
16:28 < dtm> the "odd-looking" and "incomplete editing" etc
16:28 < Ironholds> dtm: yep
16:28 < Ironholds> there's a VisualEditor tag that gets attached to any edit made with the VE.
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16:29 < Ironholds> which you can see in history pages and filter with in recentchanges
16:29 < OlEnglish> is it phalluses and chalices or phallii and chalii?
16:29 < dtm> ok.  i hope it's easy for a human to manually identify and fix what part of the wikitext is corrupt though
16:29 < dtm> OlEnglish: yeah.
16:30 < dtm> Ironholds: so i guess it's possible that half or more of an article's wikitext content could be comprised of VE notification metadata ;)
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16:31 < Ironholds> dtm: heh
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16:32 < dtm> it seems that the "Why" page claims that a chief reason for the lack of retention of new editors, is simply because wikitext is hard.
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16:34 < dtm> it would seem that if wikitext was that difficult, people wouldn't have been editing for long enough to be considered in the retention thingie.  they just wouldn't do it.  did they also factor in the barrage of social negativity, the archaic disorganization, the information overload, and the overall impenetrability of basic orientation?
16:35 < dtm> i mean is there *anybody* who, even once having mastered wikitext or VE, thinks that wikipedia is easy?
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16:36 < dtm> they're seriously thinking that after *month six* of active editing, a person says "gosh, wikitext is just too hard.  back to Warcraft!"
16:36 < TheDruId> dtm, the basics are easy, but each new area you fall into is a new Pit of Despair.
16:36 < dtm> TheDruId: trololoolo
16:36 < dtm> TheDruId: that's absolutely correct, minus the 'easy' part unless you're talking about nothing more than copy editing plain text, in an existing article, directly in place
16:37 < dtm> that part is easy, so that's all i did for three years
16:37 -!- M132T003C_ [~MTC@wikimedia/MTC] has quit [Quit: ~ Trillian Astra - www.trillian.im ~]
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16:38 < dtm> and yeah wikitext would have been the next hurdle, in terms of slightly more advanced copyediting.  and then after i've inched up to the edge of that diving board, it's all off the deep end from there.
16:39 < dtm> nonetheless!  VE is surely quite an achievement.  nothing detracts from that.  i'm just chattin.  and i look forward to some capacity of offline editing of full wikitext, other than making my own installation of mediawiki ;)
16:39 -!- Ironholds is now known as IH|away
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16:40 < SoapX> Visual Editor is live now?
16:41 -!- southpark [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
16:41 < SoapX> FOR ME IT STILL ISNT
16:41 < SoapX> OOPS
16:41 < SoapX> SORRY FOR CAPS LOCK
16:42 < TheDruId> Ouch.
16:42 < dtm> lol.
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16:43 -!- the-wub [~the-wub@wikimedia/the-wub] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
16:43 < SoapX> photoshop is to blame
16:44 < SoapX> i thnik sometimes i hit caps lock when im trying to do alt-tab though
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16:44 -!- Seahorse [~Seahorse@wikipedia/Seahorseruler] has joined #wikipedia-en
16:44 -!- Pharos_ is now known as Pharos
16:45 < dtm> SoapX: maybe it's EMACS
16:46 < SoapX> i dont know why caps lock is considered rude anyway
16:46 -!- Pharos_ [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
16:46 < Cookies52> NEITHER DO I!
16:46 < SoapX> how do people import in-person mannerisms to the Internet in such a way that tping in caps is considered "yelling" even though it doesnt actually appear any louder on screen even with a screen rader/
16:47 -!- Cookies52 [~A@wikipedia/Mdann52] has quit [Quit: AndroIRC - Android IRC Client ( http://www.androirc.com )]
16:47 < dtm> SoapX: <voice type="al capone">ENTHUSIASMS.
16:47 < SoapX> wait does that exist?
16:47 < SoapX> there's an HTML tag that will make screen readers change voices?
16:47 < SoapX> if not it should be added now
16:47 < dtm> SoapX: people are self-centered and stuff.
16:47 < SoapX> i doubt there will be an "Al Capone" voice included with every screen reader
16:47 -!- mabdul [~mabdul@wikipedia/mabdul] has joined #wikipedia-en
16:48 < dtm> SoapX: yeah sure, maybe you forgot to enable voice support and smell-o-vision(tm) in your internets
16:48 < SoapX> but still
16:48 < TheDruId> SaopX, because text readers for the disabled actually attempt to shout to get their attentions, as if it were actually an emergency, which it evidently isn't.
16:48 < Bradford> ._.
16:48 < dtm> TheDruId: haha really?
16:48 < SoapX> not that Im aware of
16:48 < SoapX> iVE NEVER USED ONE
16:48 < SoapX> but oops
16:48 -!- Pharos__ [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
16:48 < dtm> that would be possibly the single most disastrously stupid feature of a screen reader imaginable
16:48 < SoapX> but I dont think they get any louder when going over all caps
16:48 < TheDruId> SoapX, but you're inconveniencing anyone who does.
16:48 < SoapX> i think that some might when you use !
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16:49 -!- Pharos__ is now known as Pharos
16:49 < SoapX> because if it amplified the volume on all caps it would mess up with acronyms
16:49 < dtm> SoapX: i was thikning of article titles.  or.  all kinds of things, constantly, forever.
16:49 -!- galant [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
16:49 < TheDruId> dtm they distinguish between (caveats), *asterisks*, /delimiters/ and several other nuances for emphasis.
16:50 < TheDruId> the most current ones even manage stage whispers and soto voce.
16:51 < dtm> SoapX: a more thorough answer for your question as to why anyone would ever think that caps are shouting, is basically found (though i can't find it) in a wikipedia article explaining the basic human deficiency of differentiating between an idea and a real thing.  people tend to think that an idea or intangible thing or attributes of a thing, are actually a real, concrete thing or event
16:51 < dtm> SoapX: and then you probably also have some tiny limited experience of Some Dude who did deliberately say that he's shouting, by using all caps, and he was very mean about it.  and i guess ... lol.. some screen readers.
16:52 < dtm> Some Dude on bitnet or compuserve in 1991 or whatever
16:52 < dtm> back when net lore was comprised of the antics of fifteen big people
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16:53 < TheDruId> No, many early systems, especially military ones, only had capital letters, and intermediate ones had moderators giving directives in ALLCAPS.
16:53 < SoapX> w should just all change our fonts to tengwar to solve the problem
16:53 -!- guillom is now known as basile
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16:53 < dtm> SoapX: so the idea of the thing vs an actual thing.  and, projection and general histrionic nannying.
16:54 < dtm> TheDruId: yeah all personal computers (before they were called that) had all caps, like the Apple and the Apple ][
16:54 < dtm> i believe the Apple ][ has a lowercase upgrade option or something.
16:54 < dtm> back when keyboards looked like they were hewn from granite lol
16:54 -!- Sutekh [~Sutekh@unaffiliated/sutekh] has quit [Quit: Sutekh]
16:55 < dtm> and you leaped from key to key, stomping with both feet
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17:02 < SoapX> pretty sure apple //c had lowercase?
17:02 < SoapX> come on mareklug
17:02 < SoapX> we miss you
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17:05 < Nascar1996> ok
17:05 < Nascar1996> SoapX: Can you help me
17:05 < SoapX> maybe?
17:05 < SoapX> whats your PROBLEM
17:05 < Nascar1996> SoapX: Can I close this and move it where the sponsor name has been announced https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lenox_Industrial_Tools_301#Requested_move
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17:06 < SoapX> sure
17:07 < Nascar1996> k
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17:07 -!- southpark [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
17:07 < SoapX> do they change sponsors every year or something?
17:08 < SoapX> or every few years
17:08 < Nascar1996> Not every year, just when the contract ends
17:08 -!- harej [~quassel@wikipedia/MessedRocker] has quit [Quit: http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere.]
17:08 < SoapX> Neighborhood Excellence 400 to Autism Speaks 400 (2007)
17:08 < SoapX> Autism Speaks 400 to FedEx 400 (2011)
17:09 -!- Sauron|Away is now known as Sauron
17:09 < Sauron> I'm back
17:09 < SoapX> MBNA RacePoints 400 to Neighborhood Excellence 400 (2006)
17:10 -!- Bjarki [~Thunderbi@wikipedia/Bjarki-S] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:10 < Nascar1996> what would that close to
17:10 < Nascar1996> No consensus?
17:11 < SoapX> Smith and Turner formed an alliance to build the track, and they signed a contract with NASCAR to run a 600-mile event on Memorial Day. Once the construction crew broke ground, they found a layer of granite under the topsoil, making the construction costly. The area for the first turn alone used $70,000 worth of dynamite, making Turner's $750,000 construction plan near two million dollars.
17:11 < SoapX>  In the spring of 1960, Turner begged for a six-week postponement for the race after a snow storm delayed the pouring on concrete.  With two weeks remaining until the inaugural race, the paving subcontractor threatened to leave the job site for lack of payment. To solve the problem, Turner and one of his friends threatened the paving subcontractor with a shotgun and a revolver to make
17:11 < SoapX> sure the track's backstretch would be completed.
17:12 -!- FunPika [~FunPika@wikipedia/FunPika] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:12 < SoapX> isnt that awesome
17:12 -!- wolfgang42 [~quassel@wikipedia/Wolfgang42] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:12 -!- Wiki13 [~Wiki13@wikimedia/Wiki13] has quit [Quit: While there's life, there's hope.]
17:13 < Revent> SoapX: [[Template:As of]] the most recent... :P
17:13 < SoapX> i guess it would be nice if you could find a picture
17:14 -!- Gnumarcoo [~marco@wikipedia/Gnumarcoo] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:15 < Revent> Reedy: "sponsor"
17:15 < Reedy> Say what now?
17:15 < Revent> Reedy: Sorry...mistab complete. (sigh)
17:16 -!- Sir48 [~LTL@wikipedia/Sir48] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:16 < Revent> meant to say 'recent sponsor'
17:16 < SoapX> Coca Cola has two races
17:17 < tos> White and black?
17:17 < SoapX> "A ten year contract, starting in 2008 between Atlanta-based Coca-Cola and International Speedway Corporation (ISC), made Coke the official soft drink, official sparkling beverage and official water for ten of ISC's operated motorsports facilities and the Daytona 500."
17:17 < SoapX> Coke has "water" ?
17:17 < Revent> You know what would be sneaky?
17:17 < Xolsten> Yes
17:18 -!- Titoxd [~Titoxd@wikipedia/Titoxd] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:18 < Revent> One of the 'street races'...run it twice, the second time backwards. :P
17:20 -!- the-wub [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:20 -!- the-wub [[email protected]] has quit [Changing host]
17:20 -!- the-wub [~the-wub@wikimedia/the-wub] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:21 < Revent> "road course" I mean... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_America
17:22 -!- p858snake|l [~p858snake@unaffiliated/p858snake] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:22 -!- JustBerry [~8fe4a001@unaffiliated/justberry] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
17:22 < Nascar1996> Hmm
17:22 < NotASpy> crikey. Technet is dead. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2421279,00.asp
17:22 < Nascar1996> There are two redirects that are not needed
17:22 < Nascar1996> Is there a CSD for unneeded redirects
17:23 < Revent> Nascar1996: unless recent and unlinked they don't die...
17:23 < Nascar1996> created June 22
17:23 < Nascar1996> with the wrong race name
17:23 < Nascar1996> and there's another with the old race name
17:24 < Nascar1996> I'll just change it
17:24 -!- kelapstick [ca83e93b@wikipedia/Kelapstick] has joined #wikipedia-en
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17:26 -!- Sauron [9c6e52de@gateway/web/freenode/ip.156.110.82.222] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:27 < Revent> Nascar1996: Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#Redirects R3...
17:28 -!- addihockey10 [~addihocke@wikimedia/Addihockey10] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:29 < SoapX> yeah, redirects are rarely deleted
17:30 -!- contempt [contempt@unaffiliated/contempt] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:31 < Revent> {{this is a redirect|from vintage randomness}} {{unprintworthy}} :P
17:31 -!- contempt [contempt@unaffiliated/contempt] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:32 -!- BobTheWikipedian [44b39b81@wikipedia/Bob-the-Wikipedian] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:32 < BobTheWikipedian> question!
17:32 < wolfgang42> answer!
17:32 < BobTheWikipedian> good :) glad that's settled
17:32 < BobTheWikipedian> now onto business
17:32 < FastLizard4> BobTheWikipedian: QUESTION DENIED
17:32 < BobTheWikipedian> :o
17:33  * BobTheWikipedian slips it past fastlizard4
17:33  * IH|away puts a stay on the question, appeals to the 9th circuit
17:33  * FastLizard4 arrests BobTheWikipedian for illegal possession of a denied question
17:33 < BobTheWikipedian> sooooo let's say you have a series of volumes of books
17:34 < BobTheWikipedian> for example, vernes' "a trip to the moon" and "around the moon"
17:34  * Revent stamps BobTheWikipedian's forehead "classified" and censors him.
17:34 < BobTheWikipedian> and it is combined into a single physical unit
17:34 < BobTheWikipedian> two volumes in one cover
17:34 < BobTheWikipedian> is there a name for that?
17:34  * IH|away issues a writ of habeus corpus for BobTheWikipedian, has him secretly flown to hong kong
17:35 < wolfgang42> BobTheWikipedian: 'Combined works'?
17:35 -!- Logan_ [~Logan@ubuntu/member/logan] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
17:35  * FastLizard4 uploads all of BobTheWikipedian's questions to the secret new NSA datacenter
17:35 < BobTheWikipedian> or a more extra example, the world book encyclopedia's 25 volumes are combined into a singled cover that is like...a yard thick?
17:36 < Huon> BobTheWikipedian, "omnibus edition"?
17:36 < BobTheWikipedian> haha
17:36 < Huon> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnibus_edition
17:36 < BobTheWikipedian> holy cow
17:36 < BobTheWikipedian> i thought you made that up lol
17:37 < Nascar1996> Is there a way I can turn the new editing off
17:37 -!- p858snake|l_ [~p858snake@unaffiliated/p858snake] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:37  * BobTheWikipedian notices a bit of hidden irony...swearing by a hindu sacred object while working in a catholic bookstore
17:37 < Revent> BobTheWikipedian: there is {{cite encyclopedia}}, specifically look at the examples...
17:37 < FastLizard4> Nascar1996: You mean VisualEditor?
17:37 < Nascar1996> yes
17:37 -!- JustBerry [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:37 < Huon> Nascar1996, there's a "edit source" tab
17:37 < FastLizard4> Nascar1996: In your preferences
17:37 < FastLizard4> Nascar1996: Or just click "edit source"
17:38 -!- JustBerry [[email protected]] has quit [Changing host]
17:38 -!- JustBerry [~8fe4a001@unaffiliated/justberry] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:38 < IH|away> well, there's no preference switch
17:38 < Nascar1996> Just makes everything more complicated
17:38 -!- Sauron [9c6e52de@gateway/web/freenode/ip.156.110.82.222] has left #wikipedia-en []
17:38 < FastLizard4> Yes there is O_O
17:38 < IH|away> Nascar1996: you can hit 'edit source', or there is a user script to remove it
17:38 < FastLizard4> Unless they pulled it
17:38 < IH|away> FastLizard4: it's pulled.
17:38 < FastLizard4> Hmm
17:38 < Revent> BobTheWikipedian: and {{cite dictionary}} for things like "biographical dictionaries"
17:38 < IH|away> Nascar1996: we'd prefer you didn't, obviously, because more testers is a good thing, but
17:38 < Nascar1996> This is going to be a fail
17:38 < FastLizard4> Nascar1996: Actually, VisualEditor is awesome
17:38 < Nascar1996> IH|away: I tested it a few weeks ago.
17:38 < Nascar1996> I HATED IT
17:38 < SoapX> hey its BOB
17:38 < Nascar1996> I need to look at the source
17:39 < Nascar1996> for templates
17:39 < Nascar1996> etc
17:39 < IH|away> Just add importScript('User:Matma_Rex/VE_killer.js'); to your common.js
17:39 < FastLizard4> It is you sir who are a fail for not liking VisualEditor
17:39  * FastLizard4 runs
17:39 < IH|away> Nascar1996: okay, two questions.
17:39 < Nascar1996> Unless it's changed
17:39 < IH|away> first: do you think caps lock makes you more convincing?
17:39 < FastLizard4> Well, duh, VisualEditor isn't exactly supposed to be used for templates :P
17:39 < IH|away> two: do you think "I hated it" is helpful for making it not suck? ;p
17:39 < IH|away> FastLizard4: yes it is. It has a template editor now.
17:39 < FastLizard4> IH|away: Oh, right, it requires JSON information in the template documentation or something like that
17:40 -!- p858snake|l [~p858snake@unaffiliated/p858snake] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
17:40 < Revent> Nascar1996: the actual encyclopedia has a isbn for the set, and a isbn for each volume....
17:40 < FastLizard4> Still, I think VisualEditor is quite awesome
17:40 < Revent> (er, an
17:40 < FastLizard4> Sure beats the hell out of Wikia's WYSIWYG solution
17:40 < IH|away> FastLizard4: which a ton of volunteers are adding, actually (and you can too!)
17:40 < IH|away> yeah, Wikia...oy.
17:40 < IH|away> my line is "who worked on the Wikia editor and can I punch them"
17:40 < Revent> (for each year...
17:40 < Nascar1996> VisualEditor is awesome if you don't mess with templates, etc
17:40 < FastLizard4> s/solution/"solution"/
17:40 < IH|away> because we have so many multi-wiki users who have come in and gone
17:40 -!- James_F [~James@wikimedia/JamesF] has left #wikipedia-en ["Leaving..."]
17:41 < IH|away> "AGH! NO! LOOK AT WHAT WIKIA FUCKED UP!"
17:41 < SoapX> i still dont see Visual Editor
17:41 < IH|away> SoapX: clear your cache?
17:41 < SoapX> does the fact that i use WikEd automatically disable Visual Editor?
17:41 < Nascar1996> SoapX: I think it's available for a certain amount of users
17:41 < FastLizard4> Nascar1996: It's available to all logged in users
17:41 < IH|away> SoapX: noo idea, but you're one of like five people.
17:41 < IH|away> Nascar1996: yes, "all logged-in users"
17:41 < Nascar1996> FastLizard4: Beta is?
17:41  * FastLizard4 nods
17:41 < Nascar1996> I thought… nevermind
17:42 < SoapX> or maybe its because i use an old browser thats not compatible
17:42 -!- p858snake|l_ [~p858snake@unaffiliated/p858snake] has quit [Client Quit]
17:42 < Nascar1996> :O
17:42 < FastLizard4> That could be
17:42 < Nascar1996> They did change it
17:42 < IH|away> SoapX: what browser?
17:42 < Nascar1996> You can edit templates now
17:42 < FastLizard4> If it sees you're on the blacklist, it won't even load the java
17:42 < GorillaWarfare> *JavaScript
17:42 < SoapX> Firefox 3.6
17:42 < IH|away> ....
17:42 < addihockey10> LOL
17:42 < FastLizard4> I meant JavaScript
17:42 < GorillaWarfare> SoapX: Goddamn
17:42 < IH|away> oh god, you're one of THOSE freaks
17:42 < addihockey10> Failfox
17:42 < Jan_wmf> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)&diff=prev&oldid=562447691 ;)
17:42 < FastLizard4> SoapX: o_o
17:42  * FastLizard4 attacks SoapX 
17:42 < IH|away> the "ooh, Firefox 4 ruined EVERYTHING!" acolytes
17:43 < IH|away> SoapX: it does not work on 3.6, never will work on 3.6, and 3.6 sucks.
17:43 < IH|away> that is all :P
17:43 < SoapX> ok
17:43 < FastLizard4> Firefox 3.6 is the new IE 6
17:43 < FastLizard4> :P
17:43 < IH|away> (I had one user ask if it would work on 3.6, and I asked him to upgrade, and he did. to 10.)
17:43 < SoapX> well to anyone who hates VisualEditor, thats teh solution to get rid of it
17:43 < IH|away> "use a really terrible browser"
17:43 < FastLizard4> heh
17:43 < SoapX> no way .FF 3.6 is great
17:43 < addihockey10> Ih aren't they in the twenties now
17:43 -!- gallant [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:43 < FastLizard4> addihockey10: Firefox 17
17:43 < SoapX> it still works on like 95% of websites and is faster than any of the newer versions
17:43 < FastLizard4> I think
17:43 < GorillaWarfare> No, they're on 22
17:44 < FastLizard4> Oh, Thunderbird is 17
17:44 < FastLizard4> In any case, I'm a believer in Chrome
17:44 -!- Bjarki [~Thunderbi@wikipedia/Bjarki-S] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
17:44 < addihockey10> Huh,  I had something in the twenties (beta, mind you ) last year
17:44 < FastLizard4> Latest Chrome beta is 29 or something like that
17:44 < IH|away> addaway: exactly.
17:44 < Nascar1996> Safari is getting better
17:44 < IH|away> we're on 22.0, 23.0 is the dev release.
17:44 < Nascar1996> I actually use it more than Chrome now
17:44 < FastLizard4> Of course, Chrome actually does autoupdates
17:44 < addihockey10> Fastlizard4 get on the dev release channel
17:44 -!- JZTech101 [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
17:45 < FastLizard4> addihockey10: No, too buggy for my purposes
17:45 < addihockey10> Bugs are fun
17:45 < FastLizard4> Orly?
17:46 < addihockey10> Yeah.
17:46  * FastLizard4 releases hordes of cockroaches and locusts into addihockey10's house
17:46 < addihockey10> Imagine a world without bugs
17:46 -!- tos [tos@wikipedia/TheOriginalSoni] has left #wikipedia-en ["Help me! I'm bein kidnapp..."]
17:46 < FastLizard4> Oh my god
17:46 < FastLizard4> Windows would still suck
17:46 < FastLizard4> :P
17:46 -!- Ks0stm [~Ks0stm@wikipedia/Ks0stm] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:47 -!- galant [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
17:47 < IH|away> FastLizard4: it wouldn't, because it wouldn't exist
17:47 < IH|away> addihockey10 quite clearly said "a world without bugs"
17:47 < FastLizard4> IH|away: lol
17:47  * FastLizard4 rofls
17:48 < addihockey10> We wouldn't have computers
17:48 < FastLizard4> So would people be using DOS or Linux?
17:48 < addihockey10> We wouldn't need them. Everything is automatic
17:48 < FastLizard4> addihockey10: Your logic there escapes me
17:48 < mabdul> dos had bugs too
17:48 < FastLizard4> mabdul: So does your DNA
17:48 < addihockey10> Fastlizard4 personal compp
17:48 < addihockey10> Computers
17:48 < mabdul> indeed
17:49 < addihockey10> Ermahgerd it's mabdul
17:49 < FastLizard4> mabdul: Also, if you eat this caesium-137 infused cookie, I can give your DNA more bugs :D
17:49 -!- Bradford [kvirc@unaffiliated/bradford] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:50 < mabdul> ^^
17:50  * addihockey10 feeds Fastlizard4 carcinogenic spaghetti 
17:50 < FastLizard4> addihockey10: That still doesn't make sense, but okay :P
17:50 < addihockey10> That actually sounds like a good dish
17:50 < addihockey10> How doesn't that make sense
17:51 < FastLizard4> Actually, I think I'd rather eat a caesium cookie than a, say, a polonium-210 cookie
17:51 -!- SigmaWP [~coalball@Wikipedia/Lowercase-Sigma] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:51 < Bradford> :)
17:51 < FastLizard4> Since caesium-137 is a big gamma emitter, and the gamma photons would mostly exit your body
17:51 < SoapX> okay one more question though
17:52 -!- Huon [~shogunat@wikipedia/Huon] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
17:52 < FastLizard4> While poloniuim-210 is a big alpha emitter, and the particles would not exit your body and ionize the hell out of your DNA
17:52 < SoapX> if visualeditor is going to be universal, are we still going to put the tag after every VE edit? that seems a bit silly
17:52 < SoapX> why not mark the non-VE edits instead, if anything?
17:52 -!- theopolisme [~theo@wikipedia/Theopolisme] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:52 < FastLizard4> SoapX: I imagine that's the direction it will go
17:52 < FastLizard4> Probably no tagging at all
17:52 < Nascar1996> what is the difference in a hyperlink and wikilink
17:52 < FastLizard4> Nascar1996: A wikilink is a type of hyperlink
17:53 < Nascar1996> k
17:53 < Nascar1996> Just making sure
17:54 < IH|away> SoapX: because being able to easily subset to things is a good way of checking for problems
17:54 < FastLizard4> Hyperlink is a broad term for any clickable object that performs an action
17:54 < IH|away> SoapX: it was built for the A/B test and preceding alpha release, see.
17:54 -!- foks [~sup@wikipedia/fox] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:54 < mabdul> FastLizard4: phsics freak XD
17:54 < Nascar1996> VisualEditor might be easier
17:54 < Nascar1996> :PO
17:54 < Nascar1996> :O
17:54 < FastLizard4> mabdul: I'm a computer scientist physicist photographer
17:55 < mabdul> and without friends? XD
17:55 < SigmaWP> skadoosh
17:55 -!- jubo2 [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:55 < SigmaWP> hello friends
17:55 < Nascar1996> You would have to go to the source for hidden items though
17:55 < FastLizard4> mabdul: Oh, just because you're in a situation doesn't mean you have to reflect it on everyone else :)
17:55 < Revent> ^ [[Potassium_chromate]] is the yellow 'stuff' used as a corrosion inhibitor in the primary shield water tanks around nuclear reactors. A 'yellow water' leak will kill you (and your descendents) like 5 ways
17:56 < FastLizard4> Revent: That stuff is nasty
17:56 -!- lbenedix [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:56 < FastLizard4> Though I think FOOF still beats it out pretty well
17:56 < SoapX> beware the yellow water
17:56 -!- Logan_ [~Logan@ubuntu/member/logan] has joined #wikipedia-en
17:56 < Revent> FastLizard4: Before or after the exposure to insanely high levels of heavy neutrons? :P
17:56 < FastLizard4> Revent: Before :P
17:57 < FastLizard4> The heavy neutrons just add more ways to kill you :P
17:57 -!- Falcorian [~Falcorian@wikipedia/Falcorian] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
17:57 < FastLizard4> Because who doesn't like subatomic particles ripping through their bodies at high speeds?
17:57 < FastLizard4> Well, at levels significantly higher than background radiation anyway
17:57 < Nascar1996> hmm
17:58 < Nascar1996> how long will VisualEditor edits be tagged
17:58 < FastLizard4> I love how it turns out that you'll get a higher dose of ionizing radiation due to living within one mile of a coal-fired power plant than living within one mile of a nuclear power plant
17:58 < FastLizard4> (Less nuclear acidents, of course)
17:58 < FastLizard4> *accidents
17:59 < mabdul> FastLizard4: I don't have to. Moreover I don't. I lost that kind of behaviour years ago
17:59 < mabdul> "lost" might not the correct word... but yk what i mean
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18:00 < Revent> FastLizard4: Civilian nuclear plants (U-238, positive 'temperature coefficient of reactively', i.e. 'like to go boom') :(
18:01 < Revent> *reactivity
18:01 < FastLizard4> Revent: Don't all electricity generating stations have a positive temperature coefficient of reactivity?  :P
18:01 < FastLizard4> I mean, yeah, it might not be nuclear
18:01 < FastLizard4> But you could have pressure vessels exploding at a coal-fired plant (for example)
18:02 < Revent> Revent: Generally...it's because of not having to use enriched uranium...
18:02 < Revent> er, FastLizard4 lol
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18:02 -!- Jacnoc [[email protected]] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:02 < FastLizard4> If we're talking nuclear fuels specifically, anything that you're going to get a decent neutron flux out of can go boom in that respect
18:03 -!- Bjarki [~Thunderbi@wikipedia/Bjarki-S] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:03 < jubo2> le lizard rapid quatre!
18:03 < Nascar1996> When is Toolserver going away
18:03 -!- nuenfly [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: WeeChat 0.4.1]
18:03 -!- jorgeluis [~noise@wikimedia/Killiondude] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:03 < wolfgang42> What on earth is going on with the edit button? When I click it, the page goes grey, and there's now an 'edit source' button as well..
18:04 < Revent> FastLizard4: If you can get any kind of a 'fizzle', lithium deuteride is easy to 'get'... :P
18:04 < foks> Welcome to Visual Editor.
18:04 < Nascar1996> wolfgang42: Welcoem to Visual Editor
18:04 < wolfgang42> foks: Are you talking to me?
18:04 -!- jorgeluis changed the topic of #wikipedia-en to: English Wikipedia | Status: Up (http://status.wikimedia.org/) | Channel guidelines: http://bit.ly/WP-IRC | Need a chanop? Ask here or in #wikimedia-ops | For urgent admin help, say !admin <request>; for revdel, /join #wikipedia-en-revdel | No public logging | Cloak requests: http://bit.ly/IRCcloak | VisualEditor has been enabled: www.enwp.org/WP:VE
18:04 < Nascar1996> lol
18:04 < jorgeluis> wolfgang42: http://www.enwp.org/WP:VE
18:04 < foks> wolfgang42, yessir.
18:04 < Nascar1996> jorgeluis++
18:04 < wolfgang42> ... it looks nothing like an editor. The page goes grey and that's it.
18:04 < foks> Your computer is likely oooold.
18:05 < foks> Or you're using IE.
18:05 -!- Jacnoc [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:05  * jorgeluis foks
18:05  * foks jorgeluiz
18:05 < FastLizard4> Revent: Pfft :P
18:05 < foks> um
18:05 < wolfgang42> foks: Just upgraded firefox less than 5 hours ago.
18:05  * legoktm jorgeluis 
18:05 -!- Sky2042 [~Sky2042@wikipedia/Izno] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:05 < foks> jorgeluis*
18:05  * jorgeluis legoktm
18:05 < jorgeluis> <3 #wikipedia-en
18:05 < legoktm> :D
18:05 < legoktm> sup?
18:05 < foks> wolfgang42, it's almost certainly a problem on your end.
18:05 < foks> Unless you're editing a massive page.
18:05  * wolfgang42 investigates.
18:05 < jorgeluis> use monobook
18:05 < jorgeluis> it solves everything
18:06 < jubo2> Egypt: Democracy sucks ass, let's have a military takeover with prlly legistlative powers to rewrite most of the constitution...
18:06 < jorgeluis> oh, hi jubo.
18:06 -!- theopolisme [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:06 -!- theopolisme [[email protected]] has quit [Changing host]
18:06 -!- theopolisme [~theo@wikipedia/Theopolisme] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:06 < jorgeluis> We're currently on topic (for once).
18:06 < jubo2> I'm like huh?
18:06 < wolfgang42> SyntaxError: return not in function
18:06 < wolfgang42> return;
18:06 < wolfgang42> index....2186848 (line 10, col 1)
18:06 < foks> Monobook is indeed The Best™.
18:06 < Nascar1996> All Wikipedias, except those with writing systems that we struggle with.
18:06 < Nascar1996> LOL
18:06 < foks> wolfgang42, if all else fails, bugzilla it.
18:07 -!- StringTheory11_ [47d66dd5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.214.109.213] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:07 < Nascar1996> What is on the WP:VE newsletter?
18:07 < jorgeluis> I don't see VE on monobook, but i also have a .js thing for my tabs.
18:07 < wolfgang42> Wait, that's in something that's supposed to disable Central Notice banners, that should have nothing to do with it...
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18:08 < Revent> (never got a 'real' answer when I once asked) Would a detailed (sourced, and 'non-classified' verifiable) explanation of how to turn any 'tiny' nuke that actually gets a chain reaction into a multi-megaton device? WP:BEANS? :P
18:08 -!- JustBerry [~8fe4a001@unaffiliated/justberry] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
18:08 < Revent> (given there are multiple such things in secondary sources
18:08 < jorgeluis> Revent: When in doubt about BEANS, don't do it.
18:08 < jorgeluis> Easy enough!
18:10 < jubo2> Egypt: Huh..?
18:10 < jorgeluis> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29#VisualEditor_going_live
18:10 < jorgeluis> > I don't know where to start writing the bugzilla reports because I can't find a working article to compare the broken behaviour to.—Kww(talk) 3:08 pm, Today (UTC−7)
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18:10 < jorgeluis> TheBest™
18:10 < wolfgang42> Does the Visual Editor not work on pages in the Wikipedia namespace?
18:10 -!- Volis [~variable@unaffiliated/hugo-drax/x-7148487] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:11 < jorgeluis> It "works" everywhere.
18:11 < StringTheory11_> If I remember right, it wans't enabled there yet
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18:11 < jorgeluis> oh, i was incorrect
18:11 < StringTheory11_> and it's not currently working on my FAC nomination page, so yeah
18:11 < jorgeluis> > Articles and User pages only — The VisualEditor will only be enabled for the article and user namespaces (so you can make changes in a personal sandbox). In time, we will build out the kinds of specialised editing tools needed for non-articles, but our focus has been on articles.
18:11 < jorgeluis> from wp:ve
18:12 < Revent> jorgeluis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_Bravo
18:12 < Revent> jorgeluis: This is when you say "Whoops"
18:12 < wolfgang42> Ah, I missed that. So for me, the Visual Editor just hangs after graying out the page, with no error notice.
18:13 -!- ceradon [6c3cf4ab@wikimedia/Ceradon] has quit [Client Quit]
18:13 < jorgeluis> wolfgang42: do you have anything blocking js?
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18:14 < jorgeluis> Revent: Well, there /is/ a lack of citations in the "bomb design" section :P
18:14 < wolfgang42> jorgeluis: AdBlock Plus? Maybe? (I'm disabling it and seeing what happens)
18:14 -!- Excirial [~Excirial@wikipedia/Excirial] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 22.0/20130618035212]]
18:14 < jorgeluis> always good to try
18:14 < wolfgang42> jorgeluis: Nope, that's not the problem.
18:14 < jubo2> jorgeluis: Tzar Bomba
18:15 < jubo2> wewwwy big *KABOOM*
18:15 < StringTheory11_> All I know is: I'm certainly not going to use the VE; it's way too cumbersome to do simple little tasks like add templates and refs
18:16 < jorgeluis> Hm. So my comment about monobook not getting it was based on my mistaken belief that it works in the WP: namespace.
18:16 < Revent> jorgeluis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W88 WP:BEANS
18:16 < jubo2> Blini i igra i smetana and what the ever they call onioons in russia, pepets et sal garçon like now or at least 15 seconds ago
18:16 < jorgeluis> I've played around on a few articles and user pages w/it and it seems counter-intuitive.
18:17 < jorgeluis> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Killiondude?veaction=edit -- try to edit the text on my userpage, for example
18:17 < jorgeluis> Revent: ha.
18:18 < jorgeluis> Revent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:W-88_warhead_detail.png look at the "source" info...
18:18 < Revent> jorgeluis: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hydrogen_bomb#The_remaining_secret:_how_the_secondary_is_compressed <- the /real/ WP:BEANS
18:18 < SoapX> does visualeditor have the ability to generate tables?
18:18 < jorgeluis> SoapX: Yes and no. It seems to be riddled with bugs.
18:18 < jubo2> Shampanskoe, beer and vodka, why not multidrink ..? vitamin ehh ?
18:19 -!- StringTheory11_ [47d66dd5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.214.109.213] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
18:19 < jorgeluis> why can't i add newlines on my userpage at the bottom?
18:19 -!- speredenn [~speredenn@2a01:e34:ee40:55e0:e5eb:ca44:5646:d6ad] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
18:19 < jubo2> Garçon, Шампанское, пибо и водка, s'il vous plait
18:21 < jubo2> yo bring the caviar homie I could never resist eating fish eggs
18:21 -!- heatherw [~hwalls@wikimedia/heatherawalls] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:21 < jorgeluis> SoapX: It looks like table support is not available yet
18:21 < jorgeluis> http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:VisualEditor/FAQ
18:22 < jorgeluis> i know i read about it somewhere; I wonder if it was just available to people use used the pre-beta version
18:22 < wolfgang42> Is there a way to turn it off entirely? I'm never going to use it and it just adds more clutter to the tab bar
18:22 -!- Bjarki [~Thunderbi@wikipedia/Bjarki-S] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
18:22 < jorgeluis> There's a way to hide the option, but it still loads the scripts necessary.
18:22 -!- Titoxd [~Titoxd@wikipedia/Titoxd] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.]
18:22 < jorgeluis> wolfgang42: importScript('User:Matma Rex/VE killer.js');
18:23 < wolfgang42> Bah. Oh, well. Where's the setting for that?
18:23 < wolfgang42> jorgeluis: Thanks
18:23 < jorgeluis> add that to your common.js or vector.js/monobook.js
18:23 < jubo2> There's this one fish, really small fish with really small eggs and it's so delicious with sour, high-fat cream, crêpes, chopped slightly air caramellized onions, salt-n'-pepa to taste
18:23 < jubo2> it's called a vendace, just checked with source
18:24 < jubo2> ** high fat sour cream
18:24 < jorgeluis> wolfgang42: what FF version are you running?
18:24 < jorgeluis> jubo2: Hi. Please move to ##defocus or wherever that hell-hole is now.
18:24 < SoapX> yeah the visual editor gets reaaaaallllyyyy slllloooooow when editing larhge tables
18:24 < IH|away> SoapX: indeed, we're working on it
18:24 < SoapX> but thats still better than having 500 lines of mediawiki code to look at
18:25 < wolfgang42> jorgeluis: Just upgraded to FF 22.0 today.
18:25 -!- Sutekh [~Sutekh@unaffiliated/sutekh] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:25 < jorgeluis> ah.
18:25 < jorgeluis> OS?
18:25 -!- Sutekh [~Sutekh@unaffiliated/sutekh] has quit [Client Quit]
18:25 < Nascar1996> Those Tags are so annoying
18:25 < wolfgang42> Ubuntu Linux, Precise, running Gnome Classic (no effects)
18:26 < jorgeluis> Not sure why it's not working for you... (or did you fix it?)
18:27 < Revent> jorgeluis: the 'pre-beta' version. (lol) http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq4-1.html#Nfaq4.1
18:27 -!- ceradon [6c3cf4ab@wikimedia/Ceradon] has quit [Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client]
18:27 < jorgeluis> ;)
18:27 -!- Falcorian [~Falcorian@wikipedia/Falcorian] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:27 < wolfgang42> jorgeluis: It's not working, but I'm just installing VE killer and giving up, since I prefer working with raw markup anyhow
18:27 < Revent> (is, sadly, not kidding, btw...
18:28 -!- Maryana [~Maryana@wikipedia/Accedie] has quit [Quit: Maryana]
18:29 < wolfgang42> Revent: http://xkcd.com/859/ Close your parentheses! )
18:29 -!- heatherw [~hwalls@wikimedia/heatherawalls] has quit [Quit: heatherw]
18:29 -!- ceradon [6c3cf4ab@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.108.60.244.171] has joined #wikipedia-en
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18:31 < Revent> wolfgang42: :P
18:31 -!- Guest10031 is now known as euphoria
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18:31 < jorgeluis> so much euphoria right now
18:31 < euphoria> >_<
18:32 -!- Bradford is now known as Bebo
18:34 < Bebo> ._.
18:34 -!- Nascar1996 [~Nascar199@wikipedia/Nascar1996] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:34 < jorgeluis> holas.
18:35 -!- mabdul [~mabdul@wikipedia/mabdul] has left #wikipedia-en ["Once you know what it is you want to be true, instinct is a very useful device for enabling you to know that it is"]
18:35 < jorgeluis> http://i.imgur.com/P1hoYOS.gif
18:35 < SoapX> cant change font color in VE?
18:35 < theopolisme> jorgeluis: :D
18:35 < Revent> "Since it is possible to do this at virtually no added cost or other penalty, compared to an inert material like lead, by using natural or depleted uranium or thorium there is basically no reason not to do it if the designer is simply interested in making big explosions." <- the insanities of nuclear weapons design...
18:37 < jorgeluis> theopolisme: o/
18:37 -!- Nascar1996 [~Nascar199@wikipedia/Nascar1996] has quit [Client Quit]
18:38 < Bebo> jorgeluis: hablas español
18:38 < Bebo> o.o
18:38 -!- wolfgang42 [~quassel@wikipedia/Wolfgang42] has quit [Quit: Quit IRC]
18:39 < jorgeluis> Bebo: claro que si
18:39 < Bebo> O_O
18:39 < jorgeluis> si vives en california tienes que saber un poco
18:39 < jorgeluis> y espero que yo sepa mas que un poco :)
18:39 < jorgeluis> (tengo dudo de "sepa"
18:40 < jorgeluis> )
18:40 < Bebo> (8
18:40 < Bebo> no vivo en california
18:40 < Bebo> LOL
18:40 -!- Sutekh [~Sutekh@unaffiliated/sutekh] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:40 < jorgeluis> pues, el "tu" general :P
18:41 < Bebo> mmm.
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18:41 -!- Nascar1996 [~Nascar199@wikipedia/Nascar1996] has joined #wikipedia-en
18:41 < jorgeluis> tambien, soy escritor
18:41 < Revent> "The 50 Mt three stage Tsar Bomba (King of Bombs) tested by the Soviet Union on 30 October 1961 was the largest and cleanest bomb ever tested, with 97% of its yield coming from fusion (fission yield approximately 1.5 Mt). Assuming a primary of 250 kt (to keep the fissile content relatively low for safety reasons), we might postulate secondary and tertiary stages of 3.5 Mt and 46 Mt respectively. Thi
18:41 < Revent> s fusion stages would require 1700 kg of Li6D (at 50% fusion efficiency), and something like 250 kt of fission for reliable ignition. If the initial spark plug firings were 25% efficient, later fission would release another 750 kt - placing the total at 1.25 Mt (close enough to the claimed parameters to match within the limits of accuracy).
18:41 < Revent> This was a design though for a 100-150 Mt weapon! A lead tamper was used in the tested device, which could have been replaced with U-238 for the dirty version (thankfully never tested!)."
18:41 < Bebo> ok .-.
18:42 < Revent> (Sorry, I'll stop
18:42 < jorgeluis> No me conoces, Bebo?
18:42 < Bebo> No
18:42 -!- Revent [~Revent@wikipedia/Revent] has left #wikipedia-en ["Leaving"]
18:42 < jorgeluis> http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Luis_Borges
18:42 < Bebo> Soy de venezuela..........
18:43 < jorgeluis> un vecino!
18:43 < jorgeluis> jorge luis es de argentina :P
18:43 < Bebo> :P
18:43 -!- JohnLewis [~JohnLewis@wikimedia/John-F-Lewis] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
18:43 < Bebo> okay bay
18:43 < jorgeluis> bye?
18:44 < Bebo> yes
18:44 -!- Bebo [kvirc@unaffiliated/bradford] has left #wikipedia-en ["Porque dicen que el Valiente vive hasta el cobarde quiere!!! ;)"]
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18:59 < Nascar1996> "Let's be blunt: I can barely use Wikipedia right now because the section editing tags are knocked so far over to the left they are horrendous. Please install a turnoff button, instead of dismissing editors' concerns with "you'll like it"."
19:00 < foks> eh
19:02 < Nascar1996> how do I change to mono book, etc
19:03 < Nascar1996> oh
19:03 < foks> well, "so far over to the left" - like, uh, over the header text?
19:03 < Nascar1996> nevermind
19:03 < foks> that's a bug
19:04 < Nascar1996> I didn't say it
19:04 < foks> if it's just the style they dislike, well
19:04 -!- RaphaelQS [6d18ad39@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.109.24.173.57] has joined #wikipedia-en
19:04 < foks> didn't say you did
19:04 < Nascar1996> k
19:04 < Nascar1996> Just making sure you aren't making the wrong assumptions.
19:05 < Nascar1996> What skin is your favorite foks?
19:05 < foks> Monobook, by a long long way
19:05 < Nascar1996> I'm in-between Vector and Monobook
19:05 < foks> Cannot be arsed with dropdown menus in anything really
19:05 < SoapX> monoobok
19:05 < Nascar1996> I could get used to Monobook
19:05 -!- AzaToth [~azatoth@wikipedia/AzaToth] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
19:06  * Nascar1996 tries it out
19:06 < Nascar1996> Does it have smaller print than Vector?
19:07 < foks> not to my knowledge
19:08 < Nascar1996> Hm
19:09 < Nascar1996> foks: So your reason for not using Vector is the drop down menus?
19:09 < foks> there are a few other reasons, but that's a pretty big one
19:10 < Sky2042> The dropdown menus make deletion a pain.
19:10  * Sky2042 is just sayin'.
19:10 < Nascar1996> o_O
19:10 < foks> They make pretty much everything a pain.
19:10 < Nascar1996> like deleting a page
19:10 < Nascar1996> ?
19:10 < foks> Yes.
19:10 < Sky2042> Rather, mass deletion of pages.
19:10 -!- JustBerry_ [~8fe4a001@unaffiliated/justberry] has joined #wikipedia-en
19:10 < Nascar1996> ah
19:10 < foks> You have to like, mouse over the menu and pray it doesn't randomly shut itself etc.
19:11 < SoapX> Monobook is the only one worthy of serious use
19:11 < Sky2042> It used to be shift + tab, click for 15 sets of pages, then the same thing to delete. Now it's hold mouse for dropdown, then move mouse, then click.
19:11 < Nascar1996> Is there a pie chart showing what amount of users use which?
19:11 < Sky2042> :(
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19:15 < foks> Vector is probably okay for the average user/editor.
19:15 -!- Jasper_Deng is now known as Jasper_Deng_away
19:15 < foks> But like, adminwork is much more complex than it has to be when you throw in really fiddly dropdowns
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19:20 < dtm> hah!  i'm constantly hitting 'edit' and accidentally not really editing. ;)
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19:39 < dtm> i thought that {{track listing}} created a table with alternating colors per line http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Track_listing
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19:57 < Nascar1996> Why isn't hotcat working
19:58 -!- Hazard-SJ [~Hazard-SJ@wikimedia/Hazard-SJ] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
19:58 < Ironholds> Nascar1996: in what editor?
19:58 < Nascar1996> you mean skin?
19:59 < Nascar1996> oh
19:59 -!- JZTech101 [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
19:59 < Nascar1996> ?
19:59 -!- JZTech101 [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:01 -!- FastLizard4 is now known as FastLizard4|away
20:03 < Ironholds> Nascar1996: the VE?
20:03 -!- Bjarki [~Thunderbi@wikipedia/Bjarki-S] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:04 < Nascar1996> It usually doesn't have to be under any editor for it to work. When you switch to other articles the +/- is there beside the categories at the bottom of the page.
20:04 -!- barglfargl [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:05 -!- StevenW [~StevenW@wikimedia/steven-walling] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:06 < SoapX> true
20:06 < SoapX> i can confirm that hotcat is indeed missing
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20:06 -!- Guest97581 [[email protected]] has quit [Client Quit]
20:07 < dtm> notcat
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20:10 -!- Nascar1996 is now known as YE|Fool
20:11 -!- YE|Fool is now known as Nascar1996
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20:17 < Charmlet> !admin this needs something, all look to be hoaxes, and editor is mass creating them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Armenia_Fan
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20:19 -!- Bradford is now known as AndreaGonzalez
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20:20 < Charmlet> anyone?
20:20 < Charmlet> please?
20:21 < Charmlet> they're still at it.
20:21 -!- SapiensIngentis [[email protected]] has quit []
20:21 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: ANI
20:22 < SoapX> does he seriousl expect us to believe that the French won a war
20:22 -!- heatherw [~hwalls@wikimedia/heatherawalls] has quit [Quit: heatherw]
20:22 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: I don't do ANI, too much drama.
20:22 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: I stay away from drama now.
20:22 < Charmlet> SoapX: hence why I know it's hoaxy.
20:22 < GorillaWarfare> Guhh
20:22 -!- Seahorse [~Seahorse@wikipedia/Seahorseruler] has quit [Disconnected by services]
20:22 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare can does for please?
20:22 -!- Seahorse_ [~Seahorse@wikipedia/Seahorseruler] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:22 -!- StevenW [~StevenW@wikimedia/steven-walling] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:23 -!- Seahorse_ is now known as Seahorse
20:23 < CoalBalls> SoapX: http://i.imgur.com/fvypapU.png
20:24 < SoapX> i considered using that as the summary but i went with just a normal deletion
20:24 -!- AndreaGonzalez is now known as Bradford
20:24 < SoapX> GW blocked him now
20:25 < Charmlet> SoapX: and GorillaWarfare thanks :)
20:25 < SoapX> there seems to be at least some truth in the articles though
20:25 < SoapX> which is why Im not mass-deleting them all
20:25 < GorillaWarfare> SoapX: Where? I Googled like five of them
20:26 < Charmlet> SoapX: There's truth. But not at the reported year/date/outcome/etc.
20:26 < Charmlet> Hell, for some, there's articles already over the non-hoax things
20:26 -!- insub [~lol@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:2807:3ffe:51a3:1ec3] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:26 < SoapX> "Imsul Peasent Revolt ‎ " seems to be real, although misspelled
20:26 < SoapX> War of Christophe's Succession too
20:27 < SoapX> the guy spells really badly
20:28 < GorillaWarfare> So far no results for "Korean Revolution of 1786", "Owu-Ife War", or "Arakanese Uprising"
20:28 < Guerillero> what is this, GW?
20:29 < GorillaWarfare> Imsul Peasant Result might be [[Donghak Peasant Revolution]], but the dates are off by 30 years
20:29 < SoapX> lol @ that polandball comic
20:29 < GorillaWarfare> Guerillero: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Armenia_Fan
20:29 < GorillaWarfare> SoapX: I'm going to mass delete, I think
20:29 -!- bxemia [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:29 < SoapX> ok
20:29 < GorillaWarfare> I'll check em before I do
20:29 < bxemia> Does Wikipedia accepts bitcoins as a donation?
20:29 < GorillaWarfare> But so far none of these are legitimate
20:29 < SoapX> no objectionf rom me
20:30 < Guerillero> mass delete
20:30 < Guerillero> bxemia: no
20:30 < Bradford> Guerillero: :3
20:30 < Bradford> <3
20:30 < Guerillero> sup
20:30 < bxemia> I've got 40 bitcoins i want to donate to Wikipedia...
20:31 < GorillaWarfare> bxemia: we do not accept "artificial" currencies - that is, those not backed by the full faith and credit of an issuing government.
20:31 < bxemia> wich is worth 3,566$ US
20:31 -!- snuffeluffegus [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:31 < GorillaWarfare> bxemia: Could you perhaps have them exchanged?
20:32  * BlastHardcheese gives GorillaWarfare some zimbabwe dollars
20:32 -!- Jasper_Deng_away is now known as Jasper_Deng
20:32 < bxemia> good idea...
20:32 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [+o foks] by ChanServ
20:32 -!- insub [~lol@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:2807:3ffe:51a3:1ec3] has left #wikipedia-en [requested by foks (insub)]
20:32 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [+b-o *!*@2001:0:5ef5:79fb:2807:3ffe:51a3:1ec3 foks] by foks
20:32 -!- jubo2 [[email protected]] has quit [Quit: Beams.]
20:32 < dtm> so apparently, a reference can't have both a group and a name, huh?
20:33 -!- barglfargl [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20:33 < foks> i don't get VE's ref system
20:33 < foks> at all
20:33  * Nascar1996 has VE blocked
20:33 < dtm> Nascar1996: lol
20:33 < foks> I do too, at least until it's a bit better for the end user
20:33 < Nascar1996> just add importScript('User:Matma Rex/VE killer.js') to common.js
20:34 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet, Guerillero: Kay, I nuked em
20:34 < Guerillero> foks: it has always been that way
20:34 < Charmlet> Guerillero: GorillaWarfare SoapX thanks you all
20:34 < Guerillero> yw
20:35 -!- mindspillage [~kat@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has quit [Ping timeout: 276 seconds]
20:35 < dtm> i want a reference to have a group and a name!  <ref group="bar" name="foo">
20:35 < Charmlet> foks: go complain about it.
20:35 < Charmlet> foks: Like me and at least 5 others have done in the past week.
20:35 < dtm> so that i can have them be individuals, but also be categorized for maintenance and display within the article.
20:35 < Charmlet> foks: We've been met with "we don't give a shit, that's enwp specific, and we don't care this is a CONEXCEPT case"
20:35 < foks> um, no
20:36 < foks> I'm not about to shit on something that's been worked on for about a year by people I respect because I don't like a piece of their work
20:36 < foks> or rather, because I don't like it
20:36 < foks> I'm not about to shit on something that's been worked on for about a year by people I respect because I don't it*
20:36 < foks> Oh god I suck.
20:36 < BlastHardcheese> what is this i dont even
20:36 < GorillaWarfare> foks: <3
20:36 < Nascar1996> foks: We still respect and love you
20:36 < Nascar1996> <3
20:37 < dtm> Charmlet: suddenly switching the default on the basic GUI without an explanation, tour, or instant config option, ... wow i'd expect more like 5 complaints a minute.
20:37 < foks> :<
20:37 < Charmlet> dtm: There have been.
20:37 < foks> I have no idea why this was rush-released.
20:37 < dtm> Charmlet: i bet
20:37 < Charmlet> dtm: the 5 is pretty much only for references.
20:37 < dtm> Charmlet: yeah.  that's what you can personally cite.  ;) lol
20:37 -!- TeeTylerToe [~e@unaffiliated/teetylertoe] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:37 < Charmlet> if I wasn't on ignore, I'd yell more at Ironholds
20:37 -!- rmaohxd [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:37 < rmaohxd> !ops focks, stop raping me...
20:37 -!- rmaohxd [[email protected]] has left #wikipedia-en []
20:37 < foks> never
20:38  * Charmlet is raped by foks
20:38 < RD> foks: Stop it
20:38 < TeeTylerToe> ...
20:38 < Charmlet> yeah, foks, stop it!
20:38 < GorillaWarfare> ...
20:38 < Spitfire> dammit foks
20:38 < Guerillero> please don't make rape jokes
20:38 < RD> :D
20:38 < foks> foks
20:38 < GorillaWarfare> *focks
20:38 < Charmlet> oh fucks.
20:38  * foks is very confused.
20:38  * Charmlet is too.
20:39 < Charmlet> back to VisualEditor.
20:39 -!- zjpqawn [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:39 < zjpqawn>  Rape jokes: if people don't laugh, force them.
20:39 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [+o foks] by ChanServ
20:39 -!- zjpqawn [[email protected]] has left #wikipedia-en [requested by foks (zjpqawn)]
20:39 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [+b-o *!*@c-71-207-112-7.hsd1.pa.comcast.net foks] by foks
20:39 < Charmlet> Basically, the WMF has time and time again said that they don't give a flying shit about what anyone wants, and they're going to force this out their way regardless of any input.
20:39 -!- pjxphep [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:39 < pjxphep>  Some people don't like rape jokes.
20:39 < TeeTylerToe> so with the visual editor...  how do you do any formatting, like <ref></ref> and reflists, and everything else
20:39 < pjxphep>  In my experience I find it helps break the awkward tension afterwards.
20:40 -!- pjxphep [[email protected]] has left #wikipedia-en []
20:40 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [+o foks] by ChanServ
20:40 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [+r] by foks
20:40 < Charmlet> So, basically, WP:VE/Feedback is WP:DARK_HOLE_WHERE_YOUR_COMMENTS_DONT_GET_CARED_ABOUT_UNLESS_THEYRE_A_SOFTWARE_BUG_AND_NOT_A_FEATURE_REQUEST
20:40 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [-o foks] by foks
20:40 < Nascar1996> o.o
20:40 < TeeTylerToe> to be fair, the old editor was a wreck
20:40 < Bradford> ._.
20:40 < TeeTylerToe> but they replaced it with something even worse
20:40 < Nascar1996> what
20:40 < dtm> Charmlet: did you just paintstakingly type that all out?  or did you use search and replace on spaces?  lol
20:40 < Nascar1996> TeeTylerToe "a wreck"
20:40 < Charmlet> I just tell it like it is.
20:40 < Nascar1996> ??????????????
20:40 < Charmlet> dtm: I typed it out with shift held :P
20:41 -!- Jan_wmf [[email protected]] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:41 < Charmlet> Nascar1996: WMF doesn't care anything we think about VisualEditor.
20:41 < dtm> Charmlet: dedication.
20:41 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: I think your judgment of the VE team is a little bit harsh.
20:41 < TeeTylerToe> from a design perspective.  There were about a dozen different and conflicting ways of doing everything because people kept grafting crazy stuff on it like they were crazy scientists
20:41 < D_> Ooh ooh are we complaining about VE?
20:41 < Nascar1996> Charmlet: I'm talking about "to be fair, the old editor was a wreck"
20:41 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: Have you SEEN the responses on the Feedback page and other pages?
20:41 -!- barglfargl [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:41 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: Namely [[WP:VE/F]] and [[WP:VPT]]
20:41 < TeeTylerToe> from a design perspective.  There were about a dozen different and conflicting ways of doing everything because people kept grafting crazy stuff on it like they were crazy scientists
20:41 -!- TheChance [[email protected]] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:41 < Nascar1996> TeeTylerToe: The edit bar was horrible, but some scripts fixed it for me
20:42 < TeeTylerToe> it was all a wreck
20:42 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: Yes?
20:42 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: Look at them, and the WMF's responses.
20:42 -!- Yetanotherx [~Yetanothe@wikipedia/Soxred93] has joined #wikipedia-en
20:43 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: "we think it's better this way, even though it's obviously not, so let's do it our way and not care about your opinions/requests"
20:43 < GorillaWarfare> "That's an excellent suggestion; I'll throw it in Bugzilla."
20:43 -!- Bradford [kvirc@unaffiliated/bradford] has quit [Quit: ejeeeeeeele :3]
20:43 < GorillaWarfare> "That makes a lot of sense; I'm going to throw it in Bugzilla now"
20:44 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: not really.
20:44 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: "that's a bug? k, bugzila it"
20:44 < foks> with respect, airing really negative views on this in here isn't helping
20:44 < foks> since nobody in here can do anything about it
20:45 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: "that's a feature request? throw it in bugzilla, then have the team/devs all excuse why they can't do it"
20:45 < foks> apart from if they send stuff to BZ
20:45 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: So you're upset that you're using a bugtracker, is what I'm hearing.
20:45 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: No, I'm upset that they shut down every idea without even trying.
20:45  * Elsie snuggles foks.
20:45 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: Example?
20:46 < foks> Elsie, hi
20:46 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: http://enwp.org/WP:VE/F#References_(more)
20:46 -!- bxemia [[email protected]] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:46  * GorillaWarfare looks
20:46 < Charmlet> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VE/F#Citations_.28more.29
20:46 < dtm> Charmlet: are you saying they're doing a lot of WONTFIX or NOTABUG
20:46 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: wrong link
20:47 < GorillaWarfare> "I can ping the person who made the RefToolbar video about a new one :)"
20:47 < Charmlet> dtm: No, they're doing a lot of WP:CONEXCEPT (i.e. WP:WE_THINK_THIS_IS_BETTER_SO_WE_DONT_GIVE_A_SHIT_WHAT_THE_OVERWHELMING_FEEDBACK_IS_REGARDING_ANYTHING )
20:47 < GorillaWarfare> Oh joy
20:47 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: We do need a new one.
20:47 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: ESPECIALLY before the IP rollout.
20:47 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: You don't *have* to do it, but someone needs to.
20:48 -!- Chenzw|away is now known as Chenzw
20:48 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: In that response, I'm not seeing "WE WON'T DO THIS"
20:48 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: I'm seeing "How do you propose we do this?"
20:48 < D_> "You don't have to do it but someone needs to" should be the motto of the project, to be honest
20:48 < Charmlet> "Most of those templates only exist on enwiki and a few other projects. What bugs are you finding with the existing setup?"
20:48 < Charmlet> was Ironholds' full response.
20:48 < SoapX> Im agreeing with Charmlet on this topic, really
20:48 < MJ94> GorillaWarfare: !!!!!!!!!!!
20:48 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: tell me how that's "how do you suggest we do this" and not "oh, here's an excuse, and a change of subject"
20:49 < Nascar1996> MJ94 !!!!!!!
20:49 < MJ94> Hello, #wikipedia-en. What's new? I've been away for a couple months.
20:49 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: No, it's a "this is the blocker that we're running into"
20:49 < GorillaWarfare> Hey MJ94 :)
20:49 < Nascar1996> MJ94: VisualEditor
20:49 < MJ94> Heya Nascar1996!
20:49 < MJ94> Nascar1996: whaaa
20:49 < Nascar1996> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VE
20:50 < SoapX> yeah
20:50 < MJ94> jesus there's two edit buttons
20:50 < SoapX> Visual Editor is the biggest change in the last 3 months
20:51 < Nascar1996> MJ94: just add importScript('User:Matma Rex/VE killer.js') to common.js to disable it
20:52 < GorillaWarfare> Wow, so he _just_ notices teh VE and you're already telling him to disable it?
20:52 < D_> To be fair, that's probably the first reaction of a lot of people
20:52 < D_> Justified or not
20:52 < GorillaWarfare> D_: AGH CHANGE
20:52 < D_> Pretty much
20:53 < D_> During the beta I disabled VE for a period of time because I kept clicking the wrong button
20:54 < Nascar1996> GorillaWarfare: Most of the editors probably will not like it. It is only good for editing text. Even adding a wikilink is complicated on VE.
20:54 < Isarra> .
20:54 < SoapX> its good for editing tables
20:54 < SoapX> but still buggy
20:54 < Nascar1996> SoapX: If you don't have to add more to it
20:54 < MJ94> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MJ94/sandbox
20:54 < MJ94> I did it!
20:54 < SoapX> and sssslllloooooowwww
20:54 < GorillaWarfare> Nascar1996: I don't mind it, and I think that it will lower the bar for new editors. It's still new, and there are bugs, but I don't feel the need to condemn it.
20:54 -!- barglfargl [[email protected]] has left #wikipedia-en ["Leaving"]
20:55 < GorillaWarfare> MJ94: Hee, missing reflist
20:55 < GorillaWarfare> MJ94: Tripped me up too
20:55 < Isarra> Oops.
20:55 < MJ94> d'oh
20:55 < D_> So VE doesn't automagically insert a reflist?
20:55 -!- dtm [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
20:55 < Isarra> Does anything?
20:55 < D_> Oh hey, there's a button for it
20:55 < Nascar1996> SoapX: Is there a way to add more rows?
20:55 < Nascar1996> or columns?
20:56 < MJ94> I don't like VE for the sole reason that people at RfA are going to oposee per  USER DOESN'T CREATE ALL HIS FA ARTICLES BY SOURCE.
20:56 < MJ94> oppose*
20:56 < Ironholds> Nascar1996: full table editing is next on our features to-do list
20:56 < Nascar1996> Ironholds: ok
20:56 < Nascar1996> Once it does that, it will be fine
20:56 < D_> I assume that the VE edit tag is going to go away eventually
20:56 -!- Logan_ [~Logan@ubuntu/member/logan] has quit [Quit: This computer has gone to sleep]
20:57 < D_> Give it a couple of years
20:57 < MJ94> "If the VisualEditor launch is successful, we will have a lot more new users than we are used to " why is this?
20:57 < MJ94> Ironholds: I like it!
20:57 < GorillaWarfare> MJ94: Because it's more familiar to new users
20:57 < Nascar1996> MJ94: Because it will go from people who are using it because they want to, to all users.
20:57 < GorillaWarfare> MJ94: Wikitext is scary to new users
20:57 < MJ94> New RFA nom: X should be an admin because he knows how to /edit the source/
20:58 < GorillaWarfare> Nascar1996: So are you saying that any new features should be opt-in forever?
20:58 < MJ94> GorillaWarfare: hell, wikitext scares me.
20:58 < Ironholds> Charmless: for reference, saying "this sounds like you're lying to us! But I won't say that because AGF" is still saying you think we're lying to you.
20:58 < Nascar1996> GorillaWarfare: wut
20:58 < Charmlet> Ironholds: for reference, if you see that, I gave a worst case scenario that it could sound like.
20:59 < GorillaWarfare> Nascar1996: Because it will go from people who are using it because they want to, to all users.
20:59 < GorillaWarfare> Nascar1996: Quote, unquote
20:59 -!- Hazard-SJ [~Hazard-SJ@wikimedia/Hazard-SJ] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
20:59 < SoapX> MJ94 i'd be totallly cool with that RfA
20:59 -!- tawker [~chatzilla@wikipedia/Tawker] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 20.0/20130326150557]]
20:59 < Nascar1996> GorillaWarfare: That was a response to MJ94's If the VisualEditor launch is successful, we will have a lot more new users than we are used to
20:59 < MJ94> SoapX: why?
20:59 < GorillaWarfare> Nascar1996: Yes, I interpreted it to mean that they were forcing people into it. Perhaps I misread.
21:00 < Nascar1996> I'd say quite a bit of users didn't know about it
21:00 < GorillaWarfare> Nascar1996: ?
21:01 < CoalBalls> OK
21:01 < CoalBalls> Some admin should kill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northernlion
21:01 < CoalBalls> Before his friends notice that you can remove the CSD
21:01 < MJ94> 01:01, 2 July 2013 Soap (talk | contribs) deleted page Northernlion (is a youtube channe;)
21:02 < MJ94> SoapX: so you're saying you're against established users or admins using VE?
21:03 < SoapX> no I said VE is good for some things but very buggy
21:03 < MJ94> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northernlion again
21:03 < MJ94> SoapX: re: the rfa
21:03 < MJ94> er
21:03 < MJ94> lemme reword
21:03 -!- Hazard-SJ [~Hazard-SJ@wikimedia/Hazard-SJ] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:04 < MJ94> Would you be against someone running for RfA if all they used was VE if they used it 100% correctly?
21:04 < MJ94> and wasn't buggy?
21:04 < CoalBalls> I can see it now
21:04 < CoalBalls> * '''Oppose''' - user only uses VisualEditor, and has no real knowledge of wiki markup ~~~~
21:04 < SoapX> eh
21:04 < SoapX> i'd be hesitant
21:04 < D_> To be fair, I'd expect an admin to have at least some very basic familiarity with wiki markup
21:04 < SoapX> it really depends on what they were planning to do as admin
21:05 < D_> Even if they were to use VE for majority of edits
21:05 < CoalBalls> I guess it's more of "I didn't learn how to use markup because I never had to" in this case
21:05 < SoapX> also Im assuming Visual Editor will improve, and that we're not just going to freeze the development and let the bugs keep on festering
21:06 -!- Firefly67 [~Firefly67@unaffiliated/firefly67] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:06 < Nascar1996> How would you know they use VisualEditor once the tag is gone?
21:07 < MJ94> can someone delete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northernlion
21:07 < MJ94> and block
21:07 < D_> Hidden cameras, Nascar199&
21:07 < MJ94> NSA
21:07 < Charmlet> SoapX: why in hell did you protect that with the hashtag on it O.o
21:08 -!- dtm [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:09 < Nascar1996> D_ lo
21:09 < MJ94> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Block/KazuReaper
21:09 < MJ94> click that
21:10 < MJ94> :)
21:12 < Nascar1996> If an op would click that
21:12 < MJ94> s/op/admin
21:12 < MJ94> (poke prod GorillaWarfare SoapX )
21:13 < Nascar1996> YAY
21:13 < Nascar1996>  Remove VisualEditor from the user interface
21:13 < Nascar1996> IN PREFERENCES
21:13 < CoalBalls> Yay!
21:14 < GorillaWarfare> MJ94: {{done}}
21:14 < SoapX> Charmlet: i was slower than the vandal
21:14 < MJ94> Thanks GorillaWarfare !
21:14 < Charmlet> SoapX: :(
21:14 < MJ94> Nascar1996: You don't like VE?
21:14 < SoapX> apparemntly if you create-protect a page too slowly, it can turn into a regular protection
21:14 < Nascar1996> MJ94: I mostly edit tables
21:14 < Nascar1996>  ,etc
21:15 < dtm> Nascar1996: tooootally tabular, duuuuude
21:15 < Charmlet> SoapX: GorillaWarfare others https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northenlion
21:15 < Charmlet> deletion pls
21:15 < dtm> Nascar1996: do you do discographies and such?
21:15 < MJ94> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northenlion is still up, btw
21:15 < MJ94> ah Charmlet
21:16 < Nascar1996> How am I suppose to do this with VE? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_NASCAR_Sprint_Cup_Series#Drivers
21:16 < dtm> Nascar1996: wow that's purty.
21:16 < Nascar1996> lol
21:17 < D_> Well, at least it doesn't involve 40 different templates in its construction
21:17 < dtm> Nascar1996: you wouldn't happen to be interested in discographies and references, would you?
21:17 < dtm> D_: hi.  ltns.
21:17 < Nascar1996> references yes, other no
21:18 < D_> Hello, I haven't been around much
21:18 < MJ94> That's nice Nascar1996
21:18 < MJ94> I wish I knew how to do that, haha
21:18 < Nascar1996> I didn't o most of it
21:18 < Nascar1996> do*
21:18 < MJ94> Having a table maker in VE would be nice.
21:18 < dtm> Nascar1996: how do you do that?  raw wikicode editing, or an app?
21:18 < SoapX> hmm
21:18 < SoapX> someone's actually trying to make a serious article for Northernlion now
21:19 < Nascar1996> |bgcolor="#efcfff"| 38
21:19 < Nascar1996> |bgcolor="#cfcfff"| 24
21:19 < D_> What are the colors, actually
21:19 < Nascar1996> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:NASCAR_driver_results_legend
21:19 < D_> Oh, nevermind, there's a key link
21:19 < MJ94> CoalBalls: you're fast
21:20 < CoalBalls> o/
21:21 < D_> Hm, I guess these tables could use tooltips or something to replace the colors for WP:ACCESS
21:21 < SoapX> it looks like they copied it from http://youtube.wikia.com/wiki/Northernlion
21:21 -!- AzaToth [~azatoth@wikipedia/AzaToth] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:22 < Nascar1996> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Formula_One_season#Drivers.27_standings
21:22 < dtm> Nascar1996: i'm tryin got learn advanced references.  check this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films#References
21:22 -!- tos [tos@wikipedia/TheOriginalSoni] has left #wikipedia-en ["Help me! I'm bein kidnapp..."]
21:23 < Nascar1996> nice
21:23 < D_> I can feel my Firefox slowing down and I haven't clicked edit yet
21:23 < D_> wiked doesn't like long articles with lots of references
21:23 < Nascar1996> I'm waiting for someone to peer review a list in the article section
21:24 < dtm> D_: so how's it going
21:24 -!- Firefly67 is now known as HeIpmebot
21:24 < Nascar1996> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/List_of_NASCAR_Sprint_Cup_Series_champions/archive2
21:24 < dtm> D_: you're here just in time to help me figure out advanced references!  namely, groups!
21:24 < D_> Awesome!
21:25 < dtm> i want to do <ref group="bar" name="foo"> so that i can group them in the ==References== display, like here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films#References
21:25 -!- Hahc21 [~Hahc21@wikipedia/Hahc21] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
21:25 -!- AzaToth [~azatoth@wikipedia/AzaToth] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
21:25 < dtm> i am confused in that article, as to why they use a combination of <ref group="#"> and <ref group="bar" name="foo">
21:26 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [+o foks] by ChanServ
21:26 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [-r] by foks
21:26 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [-o foks] by foks
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21:26 -!- HeIpmebot is now known as GoriIIaWarfare
21:26 < D_> Where do you see a group="bar" or equivalent?
21:26 -!- Hahc21 [~Hahc21@wikipedia/Hahc21] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:27 < dtm> right now, all i want to do is group them by discography, videography, and bibliography.
21:27 < dtm> D_: tons.  just do a browser search for this --> <ref group=
21:27 -!- Catuse [~hairballs@trivialand/student/catuse] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:27 < D_> Right, most are group="#"
21:27 -!- GoriIIaWarfare [~Firefly67@unaffiliated/firefly67] has left #wikipedia-en []
21:28 -!- AzaToth [~azatoth@wikipedia/AzaToth] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:28 -!- JustBerry is now known as Gohwiwa_Wahfah_H
21:28 < D_> Generally, the name of the group will precede the footnote labels
21:28 < Jasper_Deng> Gohwiwa_Wahfah_H: stop the impersonation
21:28 -!- Gohwiwa_Wahfah_H is now known as GowiwaWahfahHiya
21:28 < D_> so footnotes with group="#" will look like [# 1] [# 2], etc.
21:28 < dtm> for example --> | style="text-align:center;"|<ref group="#" name="avatar"/>
21:28 < dtm> i already have all of my references at the bottom , like this -->
21:28 < dtm> ==References== {{reflist | refs= ....
21:29 < GowiwaWahfahHiya> Jasper_Deng: Erm... see #wikipedia-en-helpers
21:29 < SoapX> lol @ username
21:29 < GowiwaWahfahHiya> Jasper_Deng: Particular event/situation happening right now, if you haven't noticed.
21:29 < dtm> D_: i have been seeing that so far, yeah.  it makes em kinda big, so i might go with just a single-character as well.  like <ref group="d" ...> for discography.
21:30 < dtm> D_: but really i dont need them to change the citation display like that.  i just want to organize their reference lists at the bottom.
21:31 -!- GowiwaWahfahHiya is now known as JustBerry
21:31 < D_> Hm, I don't think you can have silent groups, if that's what you want
21:31 < D_> It'd be ambiguous in print, as the numbers restart
21:31 < dtm> D_: so here's what i've got so far, and as you can see, i dont want to change the citation name (i just want [1], [2], etc) and theyre all broken at the bottom. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Smuckola/sandbox
21:31 < JustBerry> Jasper_Deng: Lol, it's already over
21:31 < dtm> oic.
21:32 < dtm> D_: so are you sure about that?
21:32 < dtm> i have some docs here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Reflist#Grouped_references
21:32 < D_> I recall trying to do what you're trying to do before
21:32 < D_> but I forget how and why it didn't work
21:32 < dtm> which is basically no docs
21:32 < TeeTylerToe> I tried using the visual editor on my sandbox, it turned the whole page into a single line
21:33 < Nascar1996> When is tool server closing
21:33 < dtm> TeeTylerToe: automatic data compression.  sweet.
21:33 < Guerillero> 2014
21:34 -!- Hahc21 [~Hahc21@wikipedia/Hahc21] has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
21:34 < D_> Clearly, it's minification
21:34 < MJ94> so…many…vandals
21:34 -!- JZTech101 [[email protected]] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:34 < dtm> MJ94: where?!!! :-o
21:34 < MJ94> Wikipedia :P
21:35 < dtm> oh, over there?  again?!
21:35 < dtm> dang it
21:35 < dtm> MJ94: what are you doing?  CVU?
21:35 -!- Bradford [kvirc@unaffiliated/bradford] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:35 < MJ94> yes.
21:35 -!- PROMOSPAM [~chatzilla@wikipedia/deskana] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:35 < dtm> cool.
21:36 < Nascar1996> no one uses huggle
21:36 < Nascar1996> its all twinkle any more
21:37 < D_> I see people use Huggle
21:37 < JustBerry> !huggle
21:37 < D_> You can tell by the fancy warnings they issue to vandals
21:37 < D_> Fancier than TW
21:38 < D_> dtm: Yeah, as far as I know, there's no way to have footnotes spread between two lists with continuing numbers
21:38 -!- GabrielF [~GabrielF@wikipedia/GabrielF] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:38 < D_> So you either have to use a short group name, use a special group like lower-alpha (which generates [a], [b], [c], etc.), or figure out something entirely different
21:38 < dtm> D_: so http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films is the best example i've ever seen, personally.  i can see that they are using the <ref group="#"> and <ref group="#" name="foo">.  but my article wont let me do that, apparently.  i dont really need continuous numbers, i guess.
21:38 < Nascar1996> D_: I haven't in a year
21:39 < D_> Let me look at your source, dtm
21:39 < dtm> D_: I shall allow it.
21:39 < dtm> most emphatically, indeed.
21:41 < MJ94> Nascar1996: people don't use tw?
21:41 < MJ94> er
21:41 < MJ94> hg?
21:41 -!- StevenW [~StevenW@wikimedia/steven-walling] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:41 < D_> Ugh, I guess this is happening because you have a reference list in the reflist and groups
21:41 < D_> I'm sure there's some documentation on this somewhere
21:41 < dtm> D_: i dont grok that
21:42 < Nascar1996> MJ94: I haven't seen anyone using it in over a year
21:42 -!- Maryana [~Maryana@wikipedia/Accedie] has quit [Quit: Maryana]
21:42 < Guerillero> I use twinkle
21:42 < MJ94> GorillaWarfare: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&page=Teori+Johnson
21:42 < MJ94> :)
21:44 < dtm> D_: i dont know what you "a reference list in the reflist and groups" means, sorry
21:44 < dtm> D_: thanks for looking at this btw
21:44 < MJ94> Thank you GorillaWarfare
21:44 < GorillaWarfare> MJ94: Sure
21:44 < D_> dtm: I mean this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:List-defined_references
21:44 < MJ94> GorillaWarfare: Can I PM you?
21:44 -!- TheChance [[email protected]] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:45 < dtm> D_: oh.  using {{reflist|refs=...}} basically, huh
21:45 < MJ94> s/Can/May
21:45 < D_> Yes
21:45 < D_> but it should be working yet it isn't
21:46 < D_> Hold on
21:46  * dtm HOLDS.
21:46 < D_> Oh, duh
21:46 < D_> I see the problem
21:47 < dtm> :-o
21:47 < D_> You wrote |reflist= instead of |refs=
21:47 < dtm> wtf.
21:47 < dtm> <-- fired
21:47 < CoalBalls> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=562480608
21:47 < CoalBalls> someone
21:47 < CoalBalls> GorillaWarfare: ^?
21:47 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [+o foks] by ChanServ
21:47 < MJ94> CoalBalls: Hey, GW is my admin slave!
21:48 -!- Guest47265 [[email protected]] has left #wikipedia-en [requested by foks (Guest47265)]
21:48 -!- mode/#wikipedia-en [+b-o *!*@198.144.190.183 foks] by foks
21:48 < JustBerry> MJ94: ...
21:48 < MJ94> well hi foks
21:48 < foks> allo
21:48 < dtm> D_: k t h x
21:48 < MJ94> JustBerry: yes?
21:48 < dtm> D_: so we have a lot more workage there now, but not totally.
21:48 < JustBerry> MJ94: Hello?
21:49 < JustBerry> MJ94: Need something?
21:49 < MJ94> Hello. No, you sent me an ellipsis so I was just asking. :)
21:49 < dtm> D_: so what would you suggest overall for having named references, which are grouped at least in their presentation?
21:49 < D_> The way you're doing it makes sense
21:50 < D_> Except I'd use names that are simpler
21:50 < dtm> yeah.
21:50 < dtm> D_: i guess <ref group="d" name="foo"> and <ref group="v" name="bar"> would be better.
21:50 < dtm> D_: you had mentioned figuring out some other way but i can't even imagine that
21:51 < dtm> D_: and as for group="small-alpha", i dont even know what good that is.
21:51 -!- mindspillage [~kat@wikimedia/KatWalsh/x-0001] has joined #wikipedia-en
21:51 < D_> Eh, I was thinking more like sfn or something
21:51 -!- Jamesofur|away is now known as Jamesofur
21:51 < dtm> D_: i dont know what that is.
21:51 < D_> small-alpha uses [a] [b] [c]... instead of [1] [2] [3]
21:52 -!- Nascar1996 [~Nascar199@wikipedia/Nascar1996] has quit [Quit: I didn't do it!]
21:52 < dtm> D_: and then how does it wrap, at [z]?
21:52 < dtm> that's not valuable.
21:52 < D_> I actually don't know
21:52 < D_> it might go aa ab ac, etc.
21:52 < dtm> yeah.  ;)
21:52 < D_> I think it's actually part of CSS, not a WP thing
21:53 < GorillaWarfare> CoalBalls: Wha?
21:53 < CoalBalls> [18:47:34] �<�CoalBalls�>� http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?oldid=562480608
21:53 < dtm> sed -e 's,group="vid",group="v",g' -e 's,group="disc",group="d",g'
21:53 < GorillaWarfare> CoalBalls: Yeah, What are you asking?
21:53 < CoalBalls> delete please
21:54 < GorillaWarfare> CoalBalls: What?
21:54 < GorillaWarfare> It's a The revision #562480608 of the page named "Main Page" does not exist.
21:54 < CoalBalls> Oh, someone got it already
21:54 < GorillaWarfare> k
21:54 < dtm> D_: is the way i'm doing it now in my sandbox (like i had just said, with <ref group="d" name="foo">, basically how that film list is doing it?
21:55 < D_> Yes, except you're doing it in a list-defined reference
21:55 < D_> but that shouldn't make a difference
21:55 < D_> also, I was wrong, the labels are actually defined here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Cite_link_label_group-lower-alpha
21:55 < D_> So you can go up to azz and then you're out of footnotes
21:55 < ToAruShiroiNeko> GorillaWarfare it seems like interesting stuff is happening
21:55 < dtm> D_: i updated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Smuckola/sandbox
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21:56 -!- nonsenseferret [~nonsensef@wikipedia/nonsenseferret] has quit [Quit: away]
21:56 < dtm> D_: oh i see, so it goes all the way up to the azz end of it
21:56 < D_> It also has an ass in the middle
21:56 < dtm> okay.
21:56 < ToAruShiroiNeko> It turns out US is wiretapping every dipolatic mission it can think of...
21:56 < dtm> D_: we've got the full spectrum treatment
21:56 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I wonder if they wiretap themselves out of habit...
21:56 -!- foks [~sup@wikipedia/fox] has quit [Quit: zzzz]
21:57 < D_> Well, it looks like you still have mismatched references there
21:57 < dtm> they go cruisin around in their slow-motion thug limos and sunglasses, eyeballing office buildings, goin "oh HAYL yeah, i'd totally wiretap DAT!!!"
21:57 < dtm> D_: chaos abounds.
21:57 < GabrielF> I am shocked, SHOCKED that the government is spying on foreign embassies
21:58 < D_> Yeah, isn't that the whole reason for existence of spy agencies?
21:58 < dtm> *our* government is doing WHAT NOW?
21:58 < SoapX> lol
21:58 < dtm> better watch more Burn Notice
21:59 -!- FastLizard4|away is now known as FastLizard4
21:59 < ToAruShiroiNeko> GabrielF, I am actually shocked.
21:59 < ToAruShiroiNeko> You wouldn't want to wiretap your loyal allies.
21:59 < ToAruShiroiNeko> if the word gets out people can become ex allies
21:59 < ToAruShiroiNeko> its too much of an unnecesary risk
21:59 < dtm> D_: feel free to let me know that that's just about one of the most bad ass artists' biographies you've ever seen in all your natural born days, btw.  i wrote it all.
22:00 < GabrielF> well the EU stuff probably needs some explaining, but in general there's a reason we have a huge intelligence apparatus
22:00 < D_> Well, uh, it's pretty, um, neat
22:00 < ToAruShiroiNeko> GabrielF there are conventions signed on this
22:00  * dtm flashes a blade in front of D_ 
22:00 < ToAruShiroiNeko> there is no point for countries to have embassies if they cannot have secure communicaiton with them
22:00 < D_> I mean, it's awesome
22:00 < D_> I want to donate my firstborns to it
22:00 < D_> Yes, multiple
22:00 < ToAruShiroiNeko> diplomats arent just tax free tourists
22:01 < dtm> D_: it shall not have any firstborns.  its contributions are only literary, and audiovisual.
22:01 < D_> Good, cause I don't have any
22:01 < GabrielF> the whole point of having intelligence agencies is that governments have things that they feel are necessary but not legal or, for lack of a better word, socially acceptable
22:01 < dtm> even though this article transcends this puny wiki, it  does not assimilate firstborns
22:01 < ToAruShiroiNeko> GabrielF I can kind of guess how they gotten into the EU systems
22:01 < dtm> D_: graphs!!!!!!  WE HAVE GRAPHS.
22:02 < dtm> D_: i want moar graphs hax.  ideally i'd like to have multiple colors on the same horizontal row in the same place, like if a guy played multiple instruments or something
22:02 < dtm> at the same point in the timeline
22:02 < dtm> IS POSSIBRU??
22:03 < D_> Like, with stripes or something?
22:03 < dtm> D_: i knwo there are different types of graph engines
22:03 < ToAruShiroiNeko> GabrielF I wonder how much of a hard time US diplomatic missions will get.
22:03 < D_> I've seen people just replace native graphs with SVGs to accomplish that
22:03 < ToAruShiroiNeko> any svg artists here?
22:03 < dtm> D_: i compromised on the patterns, by doing a light color.  as you can see.  but also, i would like to basically have mini lines.
22:04 < dtm> SVG file??? shiiiiiiiii
22:04 < dtm> that is beyond my present, though substantial, hax quotient
22:04 < GabrielF> we'll see, particularly with regards to US allies, but historically spying on embassies is pretty much expected
22:04 < ToAruShiroiNeko> sure
22:05 < ToAruShiroiNeko> its not suprising for Russia to listen to the US or vice versa
22:05 < ToAruShiroiNeko> the problem happens when its allies that you are treating like your enemies
22:06 < ToAruShiroiNeko> US embassy in Moscow has bugs embedded into the cement
22:06 -!- Catuse [~hairballs@trivialand/student/catuse] has quit [Quit: brb]
22:06 < ToAruShiroiNeko> capable of listening to keyboard taps
22:06 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I'd tap that
22:07 < D_> Must've been annoying to people trying to hang pictures on a wall
22:07 < D_> without breaking a microphone
22:08 < dtm> D_: so for example, you presently see one solid green line there, but i'd also like to suddenly split that line's height in half and add another part like if he started playing harmonica for one album or something
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22:09 < ToAruShiroiNeko> D_ actually its fairly easy to kill them with modern tech.
22:09 < ToAruShiroiNeko> Microwaves
22:11 < D_> dtm: I don't think you can split bars. You could try some fancy things with lines, but like I said, by then you might be better off doing a dedicated image
22:12 < dtm> D_: and what app would one use for this?
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22:12 < dtm> D_: does an svg file remain editable and viewable by all?
22:12 < D_> You could hand-draw it in Inkscape, but there's probably some advanced tools like matplotlib you could use
22:12 < D_> And yes, svg files are XML
22:12 < dtm> D_: is that something that is presented by mediawiki and rendered in the browser, and just downloaded?
22:12 < D_> MediaWiki renders svgs as png by default, I think
22:13 < D_> you can click through them to get the original svg
22:13 < dtm> k
22:13 < dtm> sounds good, though way more difficult
22:13 < dtm> unless there's some app just for that
22:13 < dtm> or whatnot
22:13 < dtm> i have zero experience with such things
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22:13 < D_> I don't think there's a trivial way to do it
22:14 < dtm> D_: this is where i got the idea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_(band)#Timeline  and for example, each of those guys play multiple instruments.
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22:19 < ToAruShiroiNeko> GabrielF can I use you btw?
22:19 < GabrielF> what's up?
22:19 < dtm> he has failed usability tests.  no.
22:20 < ToAruShiroiNeko> the ISS is up but I would like help with [[2013 protests in Turkey]]
22:20 < ToAruShiroiNeko> do you think you can help in any way?
22:20 < GabrielF> I'll look at it now
22:21 < GabrielF> is there anything in particular that you'd like me to look at?
22:21 < ToAruShiroiNeko> well, more content is needed
22:21 < ToAruShiroiNeko> copy edits too
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22:21 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I also am working on that table
22:21 < ToAruShiroiNeko> the list is only partially converted to a table
22:22 < ToAruShiroiNeko> more people really needs to work with this, its a +1 month protest :/
22:25 < GabrielF> hmm isn't the plural of "water cannon" "water cannons"
22:26 < GabrielF> not "water cannon"?
22:26 < ToAruShiroiNeko> probably but each armored vehicle has only one of them
22:26 < ToAruShiroiNeko> where is it used?
22:26 < GabrielF> several times in the intro
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22:27 < GabrielF> On the evening of 15 June, following several peaceful evenings in the square including piano recitals, police moved in with tear gas and water cannon adulterated with pepper spray, and rapidly cleared and occupied the park and square
22:27 < GabrielF> the word adulterated is also a bit odd
22:27 -!- Sky2042 [~Sky2042@wikipedia/Izno] has quit [Quit: Good night, and good luck.]
22:28 < SoapX> Turkey
22:28 < MJ94> Ham
22:28 < ToAruShiroiNeko> yes
22:28 < SoapX> "cannon" is the plural of cannon in some contexts
22:28 < SoapX> I personally find it annoying
22:28 < SoapX> but it's not incorrect
22:28 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I think it is trying to say "commenced their attack"
22:29 < SoapX> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cannon#Noun
22:29 < ToAruShiroiNeko> OH
22:29 < GabrielF> it seems antiquated and stuffy to me
22:29 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I know what this means
22:29 < ToAruShiroiNeko> what police did is they addec chemicals into the water supply of the water cannons
22:29 < ToAruShiroiNeko> the new mixture caused a burning sensation until the exposed changed their clothes
22:29 < TeeTylerToe> where would I discuss adding to the nvidia template at the bottom of nvidia articles?
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22:30 < GabrielF> but I don't think adulterated is the right word, I don't think you can adulterate water
22:30 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I mean, why only choke people to death and blow them around like ragdolls with water cannons :p
22:30 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I know its not the right word
22:30 < ToAruShiroiNeko> I had to think about what it was trying to say :p
22:31 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://thesaurus.com/browse/mix?s=ts
22:31 < ToAruShiroiNeko> its one of the synonims, not a good one but one of them
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22:31 < dtm> D_: aha!  i think i understand, from the link you gave me at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:List-defined_references#Examples  ... they do {{reflist|group=foo|refs=.....}} but the individual <ref>s don't have a group.
22:31 < ToAruShiroiNeko> "amalgamate" ?
22:32 < D_> dtm: Apparently it works either way
22:32 < D_> what you need to make sure is that your calls to the ref in the text actually have the group specified
22:32 < ToAruShiroiNeko> or maybe just "mix"
22:32 < D_> I think that's the problem with your sandbox article
22:33 < D_> "Most modern water cannon are also capable of adding tear gas to the stream."
22:33 < D_> Is what our article on water cannons says
22:33 < ToAruShiroiNeko> thats a lie though
22:33 < ToAruShiroiNeko> water cannons can only handle pepper spray
22:33 < ToAruShiroiNeko> thats not really a gas
22:33 < TeeTylerToe> Where would I discuss adding the predecessors to PureVideo, VPE and HDVP to the nvidia bottom template thing?
22:34 -!- LtNOWIS-mobile [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
22:34 < ToAruShiroiNeko> tear gas is when pepper spray is airborne through other chemical procesees
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22:34 < dtm> D_: well it should work yeah but i dont need to have group= in the <ref>.  right?  i mean i could see that if it was a total scalability issue maybe.  but this is not a supermassive article like that film one.
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22:35 < D_> You don't need it in the list, you need it in the <ref group="herp" name="derp" /> that you put in the text
22:36 < dtm> D_: inline yes.  i understand that it needs to be consistent either way.  but i'm saying i dont need to do it that way, if i'm only organizing the visual presentation.
22:36 < dtm> D_: i am just wanting to verify with you that i dont really need to internally organize groups; just to present them as groups in {{reflist|group=..}}
22:36 < dtm> amirite
22:36 < dtm> for this type of article
22:36 < dtm> i'm not totally sure why the film one did individual ref groups.
22:37 < D_> What do you mean by "internally organize"?
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22:37 < dtm> D_: i mean using <ref group=>
22:38 < dtm> inside the inline citations
22:38 < ToAruShiroiNeko> GabrielF do any of those suggestions work better?
22:38 < D_> Right, you don't need to explicitly specify the group inside your list
22:38 < TeeTylerToe> Can I boldly edit a template?
22:38 < D_> See the source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Daranz/sandbox
22:38 < dtm> D_: i'm askin if you have an opinion on which way this article needs
22:39 < D_> Style-wise? Leave the group off, probably more readable that way
22:39 < dtm> k
22:40 < TeeTylerToe> what happens if I boldly edit a template?
22:41 < D_> Same thing that happens if you boldly edit an article, likely
22:41 < TParis> you get stabbed
22:41 < D_> Like I said
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22:45 < dtm> D_: so what do you think of my discography layout?  selected discography in a table, and full discography in {{collapse}} (suboptimal for screen readers though it might be, so i've heard)
22:45 < D_> You could always spin the discog off to another article
22:46 < dtm> D_: yeah i might do that later.
22:46 < D_> I don't know what the MoS or other recommendations say about discographies
22:46 < dtm> D_: so far i haven't seen any official way to do it; the discography guidelines all say "here are some templates and suggestions but do whatever"
22:46 < D_> But, I think that collapsible is by default uncollapsed without js, and should work nicely with screen readers
22:46 < dtm> yeah it's just way too long if uncollapsed by default
22:47 < dtm> so, whatever.
22:47 < dtm> i haven't tested it with a screen reader.
22:47 < D_> Depends on the screen reader
22:47 < D_> As a rule, if it looks ok in Lynx, a screen reader can probably manage somehow
22:47 < dtm> D_: how do you like the Achievements tab?  i'm trying to pack in the most notable stuff about a given artist.
22:47 < D_> At least that's how I think
22:48 < dtm> D_: Sound legit(tm).
22:48 < dtm> blam
22:48 < dtm> D_: i WISH that i had a single, normal template for all this
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22:49 < D_> It sorts funny
22:49 < D_> I don't know why
22:49 < dtm> but instead, we have 40 templates, each specifically limited
22:49 < D_> the achievement column, that is
22:49 < D_> Maybe just leave in blank cells?
22:49 < D_> that or disable sort
22:49 < dtm> oh, i guess it probably shouldn't be sortable because its contents aren't normalized
22:49 < GabrielF> I just got default visual editor for the first time
22:49 < dtm> what do you mean by blank cells?
22:49 < GabrielF> neat
22:49 < dtm> GabrielF: congrats
22:50 < CoalBalls> http://i.imgur.com/KaMtLfb.png
22:50 < CoalBalls> There's a WP username and password in there
22:50 < CoalBalls> Not sure what further action should be taken, if any
22:50 < D_> You have a whole bunch of cells merged in the column as it stands
22:50 < dtm> D_: they're just empty
22:51 < Charmlet> CoalBalls: That is not a valid username.
22:51 -!- TheChance [[email protected]] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:51 < CoalBalls> ok then
22:51 < Charmlet> as in User:ytewq does not exist.
22:51 < D_> They're not there at all
22:51 < D_> so the table looks funny
22:52 < D_> I think it was supposed to be ytrewq but someone forgot the r
22:52 -!- Jeske_Couriano [~chatzilla@unaffiliated/jeske-couriano/x-0000001] has quit [Ping timeout: 246 seconds]
22:52 < D_> User:Ytrewq exists, though
22:53 -!- Bradford [kvirc@unaffiliated/bradford] has quit [Quit: ejeeeeeeele :3]
22:53 < Charmlet> D_: then the password in the image is not valid.
22:54 < D_> Well, I'm glad you checked, because I didn't want to
22:54 < Charmlet> D_: I'd always check, and then instantly change the password and email the email they had.. That's what'd be nice to the account owner.
22:54 -!- Tanvir [~tanvir@wikimedia/wikitanvir] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
22:55 < dtm> D_: oh crap.  both the {{reflist | group=}} and the inline citations have to have the 'group='.  but *not* the refs=
22:55 < D_> It's logical, but I have an aversion to such things as I don't want to be accused of being an evil hacker
22:55 < dtm> D_: so i think that'll do it.
22:55 < Charmlet> D_: meh, I think AGF applies :)
22:55 < GabrielF> can you edit references in visual editor?
22:55 < D_> Right, at least with WP
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22:55 < Charmlet> GabrielF: Yes. Should you try to? Hell fucking no.
22:55 < Charmlet> GabrielF: The references suck in VE
22:56 < GorillaWarfare> GabrielF: A bit, but not in a reftools kind of way
22:56 < TeeTylerToe> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:Nvidia&diff=562487779&oldid=560920105
22:56 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: Man, you're really helpful.
22:56 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: I said what you did in a blunt WP:NOTCENSORED way.
22:56 < TeeTylerToe> We should have an article on hardware codec acceleration
22:56 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: No, you're railing against the VE without making any effort to fix it.
22:57 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: How the hell am I supposed to fix the VE?
22:57 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: Work with the VE team
22:57 < Charmlet> Heh, not likely, one of them already won't listen to me and ignores me, I could ping Keegan but I'd rather not make him mad too.
22:58 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: Or you could submit bug reports, which is _actually_ helpful
22:58 < PontoCom> Hellow Peeplu!
22:58 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: Bug reports are for bugs, not for features that you know the team won't actually listen to because they've said they aren't going to be doing it.
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22:58 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: Bug reports are for features
22:58 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: features *that have some chance of getting done*
22:58 < Charmlet> you missed every word I typed after features.
22:59 < TeeTylerToe> So edit source is how you do anything that isn't editing text that doesn't include any links
22:59 < Charmlet> TeeTylerToe: yep.
23:00 < Charmlet> TeeTylerToe: i.e. vandals inserting PENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENIS get it easier, everyone else still has to use the old editor.
23:00 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: What, the references thing?
23:00 < D_> I dunno, edit source would be faster if you just wanted to insert a lot of penis
23:00 < D_> It doesn't need to load a bucket of js
23:00 < TeeTylerToe> VE isn't enabled on the main sandbox?
23:00 < Charmlet> D_: Some vandals insert it in a <!-- html comment PENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENISPENIS inadvertantly -->
23:00 < Charmlet> TeeTylerToe: Nope.
23:01 < D_> Not enabled in WP: space
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23:01 < TeeTylerToe> Is there anything good about VE?
23:01 < D_> Only mainspace and User:
23:01 < D_> So you can use it in your sandbox
23:03 < GabrielF> whoever is working on the Turkey protest article has got to stop omitting the author name from references
23:03 -!- Xolsten [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
23:04 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=39621
23:04 < TeeTylerToe> that doesn't sound like a terrible problem, and a lot of times finding the author is difficult or impossible
23:05 < GabrielF> its usually right below the title!
23:05 < GabrielF> I'm talking about references to the New York Times, The WSJ, Foreign Policy, etc.
23:05 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: I don't know what that means
23:06 < GabrielF> especially if its an opinion piece, if you omit the author name it reads like you're citing the newspaper's editorial board, not a contributor
23:07 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: That's a bug report regarding the VisualEditor and citations. You'll notice its status is "NEW" (not "WONTFIX" or similar), and its priority is "High normal"
23:07 < ToAruShiroiNeko> http://blogs.reuters.com/photographers-blog/2013/06/27/how-would-you-like-your-doner-with-or-without-a-gas-mask/
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23:07 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: ... New means it hasn't been changed to WONTFIX yet ;P
23:07 < ToAruShiroiNeko> thats some dedication
23:08 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: I understand the BZ interface.
23:08 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: I don't understand the title.
23:08 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: What is the title of the BZ ticket asking them to do
23:08 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: It was reported in August.
23:08 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: Do you understand what "refactor" means?
23:08 < Charmlet> Not in code terms...
23:09 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: Refactoring code is when you take existing code and alter how it's written for one reason or another
23:10 < {soap|bed}> ♥♥♥
23:10 < dtm> the general reason is to make it not suck!
23:10 < GorillaWarfare> In this case, it's to work the VE plugin for Cite into the Cite extension so that it will work with the VE
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23:10 < D_> Ah, optimism
23:10 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: so it's basically asking them the same thing they've confirmed MORE RECENTLY they won't do?
23:10 < dtm> to make it not suck, usually due to its origins in hackery, kludgery, and quick fixes!
23:10 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: When exactly have they said "we won't work on references"?
23:11 < dtm> wikipedia has good articles about code refactoring and code smell lol
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23:11 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: gah, we've been through this.
23:11 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: Right. And yet somehow you still came out of the discussion thinking they're not going to make any improvements to the citations?
23:12 < Charmlet> They said it's too enwiki specific.
23:12 < Charmlet> I can quote that shit.
23:12 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: No, they said that citation _templates_ are too enwiki specific
23:12 < GorillaWarfare> There is a huge difference
23:12 < Charmlet> So you're saying theres some other way to improve the citations?
23:12 < Charmlet> #seemslegit
23:13 < dtm> D_: so what have you been up to lately?  now that you're here, i realize that i've missed you!
23:13 < Gfoley4> hashtags don't work in IRC
23:13 < D_> Oh, you know, certainly not anything illegal
23:13 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: You think that citation templates are the only way to make a good citation?
23:13 < dtm> D_: absolutely
23:13 < Charmlet> Gfoley4: they do actually, but they're links
23:13 < D_> To channels
23:13 < D_> There is a #yolo channel
23:13 < Gfoley4> well yes
23:14 < dtm> D_: oic
23:14 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: I think the reftoolbar is the only way to make an easy one with all the things in it someone needs to verify for a newbie.
23:14 < Charmlet> Gfoley4: #you #just #got #b #u #r #n #e #d
23:14 < Gfoley4> damn
23:14 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: So, say the VE had a popup that looked just like the RefTools one, that created the formatted text without the use of a template. That's not a good solution?
23:15 < Charmlet> No, that's a good citation.
23:15 < Charmlet> The reftoolbar wouldn't *HAVE* to use templates.
23:15 < Charmlet> But it's the easiest way to do it.
23:15 < GorillaWarfare> It's the easiest way if you're editing enwiki.
23:15 < Charmlet> otherwise a change would produce inconsistency.
23:15 < GabrielF> we should definitely try to standardize citations so that the data is structured
23:15 < GorillaWarfare> But if you're creating a product that's supposed to work cross-wiki, then what?
23:15 < Charmlet> (and es:wiki among others)
23:16 < D_> Then you make it modular enough that you can make it work cross-wiki
23:16 < D_> I suppose then it doesn't fall to the people working on VE to incorporate some sort of a ref template functionality, though
23:17 < GorillaWarfare> D_: Right. And mass-creation of templates on any wiki that wants nice cites is, IMO, not a good solution.
23:17 < D_> What I'm saying is, there needs to be a way to write a reftoolbar equivalent for VE
23:18 < D_> But I don't know the first thing about VE, so I don't know how viable that is
23:18 < GorillaWarfare> D_: I agree, and I think they are working on finding a good solution.
23:19 < TeeTylerToe> Imagine code is a black box, things that come into the black box are called input, and things that go out of the box are output.  Refactoring code is changing the black box and making it better, but keeping the input and output the same.  Refactoring is rewriting something to do the same thing...  just faster, and better
23:19 < GabrielF> *sigh* we're citing an author as last name Board, first name Editorial
23:20 < D_> I bet there's an automated tool involved in the process somewhere that did it, GabrielF
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23:21 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: Anyway, feel free to continue angrily ranting about the VE. But until you actually start to contribute productively towards making it a better tool, don't expect anyone to take you seriously.
23:21 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: Have you seen the mountains of suggestions and bugs I've given them?
23:22 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: Probably not, what's your bugzilla name?
23:22 < Charmlet> GorillaWarfare: bugzilla is for sissys. I go to WP:VE/F
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23:22 < GorillaWarfare> Charmlet: My point.
23:22 < GabrielF> if someone is creating these refs with an automated tool that scrapes the article website or whatever then they need to be smacked
23:23 < D_> Why? Automated tools are useful, as long as you pay attention and don't just blindly trust their output
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23:23 < dtm> D_: :-[   waaaah.  i can't figure it out!  all i want to do is to separate the ==References== into subsections, like the film list was, but while using named references!
23:24  * IDoH agrees with D_
23:24 < GabrielF> well this person was not paying attention and blindly trusted the output
23:24 < dtm> D_: it does seem that the film list is doing that, and it's sometimes using multiple citations per named reference
23:25 < Charmlet> TeeTylerToe: oh hell no they better not leave the reference output be the same as it is in VE now.
23:25 < dtm> D_: like for example <ref group="#" name=kramer>
23:25 < Charmlet> dtm: there's also autogroups that change the numbering style :D
23:26 < dtm> D_: in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_films
23:26 < dtm> Charmlet: are you talking about the three reserved names, like lower-alpha or whatever
23:26 < Charmlet> dtm: yep :P
23:26 < Charmlet> dtm: I've been meaning to vandalise (cough) an article by changing that xD
23:27 < D_> dtm: So what exactly is the problem?
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23:30 < dtm> D_: the problem is that all my references become invalidated when i try that.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Smuckola/sandbox
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23:31 < D_> You're not specifying the group in your inline calls
23:31 < D_> You need to specify the group like so.<ref name="whatever" group="d" />
23:32 < dtm> ok.  and i'll have to remember why THAT didn't work, once i switch it back to that.  ;)
23:35 < dtm> the film one doesn't have inline citations in the article for everything.
23:36 < dtm> somehow.
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23:37 < dtm> it just references the group inline in the article body, i guess.  <ref group="#">
23:37 < dtm> weird.
23:37 < D_> Well, yes, you can do that, too
23:37 < D_> If you don't specify a name, you can't use it again
23:37 < D_> but if you don't want to use it again, that's ok
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23:38 < dtm> no i dont want it like that.
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23:40 < {soap|bed}> it seems like 80-90% of new articles are deleted
23:40 < dtm> {soap|bed}: yikes.
23:42 -!- LtNOWIS-mobile [[email protected]] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
23:43 < dtm> D_: holy smack on toast.  it appears that we have reached a compromise and that i may go get my chili cheese tots.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Smuckola/sandbox
23:43 < D_> Don't let me stop you
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23:46 < dtm> D_: so how's that look to you?  does that seem optimal, given all possibilities?
23:46 < D_> It makes sense
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23:46 < D_> You might want to note that d stands for discography and v stands for videography somewhere
23:46 < D_> in case that's unclear to someone
23:47 < dtm> i could make another area for interviews or articles etc
23:47 < dtm> yeah.
23:47 < dtm> Charmlet: tell me what you're wanting to vandalize?  i might be interested
23:47 < dtm> D_: thanks a lot for being a sounding board
23:47 < dtm> bbl tots
23:48 < Charmlet> dtm: I want to add group=lower-alpha or similar to all refs in an article to change them xD
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23:52 < D_> blah
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23:59 < TeeTylerToe> What a diabolical scheme!
--- Log closed Tue Jul 02 00:00:54 2013